Christian Straka: Mindfulness

In this episode of the Keiser Human Performance Podcast, Christian Straka shares insights into performance training, coaching philosophy, and the practical application of strength and conditioning principles.

The discussion explores how effective training programs are built around intention, consistency, and adaptability — highlighting the importance of tailoring approaches to the individual while maintaining a strong foundation in proven methods. Straka also dives into real-world coaching experiences, offering perspective on how to bridge the gap between theory and application.

This episode provides valuable takeaways for coaches, practitioners, and athletes looking to elevate performance through smarter, more intentional training strategies.

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Christian Straka, how are we doing today? I'm doing  wonderful. How are you, Gabe? I'm doing great.

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What's new in your world, man? You know what's  new? I guess writing a book right now. So, that's

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definitely new. But other than that, really, I'm  spending all of my time around my favorite kind

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of subject and theme in my life with this kind of  like developing the mind via mindfulness practices

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and talking about it. So that's why we're here and  explaining it to people who are interested in it

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and and just diving deeper and practicing myself  as much as I can is kind of really, you know,

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where where I'm at. Awesome. Is it too early to  plug the new book? I think so. I think so. We're

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like just in the first draft. No, we we'll update  the episode notes when we're finally ready for

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it. Yeah. But that's very exciting. Is this your  first time writing a book? It is my first term

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writing a book. I have for many years really  had this kind of desire to write a book and I

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think it's like many people have it all right once  they are very interested in a subject for a long

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time and then they kind of just want to write  it down and in my case it's about mindfulness

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and tennis specifically because I've also played  tennis my whole life and been teaching tennis my

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whole like after I stopped playing and then  with a dear friend of mine and former player

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who has also been meditating really his whole  and has been very successful on the tour. We we

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eventually ended up working together when he won  the his last world championships in doubles and

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you know now 10 years later or something we said  come let's just do it together. So we we are um

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through the first rough draft we have accomplished  that so that's kind of a big milestone but now the

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nitty-gritty is kind of where it's at. Yeah I'm  super excited to talk about this topic today. Uh,

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we haven't had a guest on here yet to discuss  mindfulness. Um, last summer or last fall, I read

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Andre Agassi's book. Um, I imagine you've read it  as well, but going through that, I mean, if you

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were to look at that or read that, could have used  this technique at this point. It could have been

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really helpful for him here. I mean, that was that  was a really exciting book to read. And I mean,

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you really opened up about the stressors of of  his life, especially as it relates to tennis. Yes.

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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and it's a good example,  I think, of how what we perceive from the outside

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that people are might or might not be experiencing  is might not be at all what they actually are

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experiencing, right? And that obviously doesn't  apply just to tennis players or athletes in

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general. That applies to everyone. We have like  this view of people like how easy things are for

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them or how great they have it and they are really  having a rough time. And sometimes it's the other

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way around. people think like, "Wow, that is like  a rough life." And they're actually very content

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and happy. So like the external circumstances  and your own kind of perception of how pleasant

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or unpleasant your life is might not always match  your own opinion. Yeah. Yeah. So let's dive into

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it. Uh first question, it's a simple one, but how  do you define mindfulness? So mindfulness really

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is pretty clearly defined by now in the in the  western world in a from a secular perspective.

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But I want to preface that with a lot of people  use the word mindfulness now and not everybody

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means the same thing that is pretty important to  realize. So one has to dig a little deeper just

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with what do they mean by mindfulness. When you  talk about secular mindfulness then generally you

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mean three things. Mindfulness consists of three  different skills that you are using simultaneously

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if you are mindfully using all of these three  skills. So the first skill is your ability to

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pay attention to what you want for any amount  of time. Whether it's one or two seconds or 30

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seconds or longer, right? Whether you move your  attention back and forth between different things

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that matter or you keep it on just one thing,  whether you have a super narrow focus or it's a

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very broad focus, all of that falls into this.  If this is what you want to pay attention to,

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then this is the first skill. And it's just a  broad kind of very broad skill that all falls

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under the heading of concentration. Okay. But it  has very many many subs skills. Mhm. Um the second

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one is a lot of times what people think of just  mindfulness. Um and that's like people call it

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awareness or presence or being in the moment. um  you can call it clarity um which is your ability

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to track in real time what you're experiencing. So  you can direct your attention somewhere and then

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when you your attention is on it then you can  notice something about it. So you're noticing

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details so you're detecting things and you're also  distinguishing things from one another. So this

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detection and distinguishing skill is awareness.  Okay, that's the second skill you're using. And

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then the third skill you're using, which most  people don't even realize it is that it is a

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skill to begin with. meaning they don't realize  you could actually train it if you knew how.

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Is your ability to be equally open to pleasant,  unpleasant, and neutral experiences without kind

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of suppressing or avoiding what's unpleasant  without clinging and holding on to what is

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pleasant and being dismissive to what's neutral.  So it's like another option to those three where

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you acknowledge and allow that experience to  exist without fighting it. And if you use these

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three skills, you are mindful. Everybody has  those skills. Everybody's using those skills,

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but most of the time not intentionally and not  in a systematic way. They don't plan on using it.

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they don't adjust those skills if the skills are  not working in their favor right all the time and

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therefore over time these skills don't necessarily  improve as much as one would like but that's where

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mindfulness training comes in right so just  because you are mindful doesn't mean you're

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training it in an effective way so when you do a  mindfulness training then that means just you have

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a systematic approach is like okay I'm going  to use these three skills in this particular

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way to achieve this goal. Um, and that might be  good for a tennis player and for a soccer player

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it might be better to train this particular  subskll in this way. And then every athlete

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has different predispositions, different talents  and challenges. So even though you might be in

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the same sport and even in the same match, you  might have to use the skills differently because

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you're not the same individual experiencing the  identical uh identical. Okay, so recapping here,

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three things in terms of mindfulness, ability  to pay attention to what you want, awareness and

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clarity, ability to track your own experience,  obviously having that detection aspect,

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then also the distinguishing aspect, and then  ability to be open to experiences whether they're

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pleasant or neutral. So in terms of performance  and mindfulness and performance, do you now take

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these three pillars and make them more specific  to performance or does mindfulness mean something

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different in the aspect of athletic performance  to you? Yeah, great question. So you take these

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three skills, that's always what you do. And now  you just need to understand how do these skills

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apply in your current situation. And if you are  a tennis player, then you are in a very specific

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situation where you need to do very specific tasks  which limits what you need to pay attention to. It

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limits what you need to notice, what should you  be aware of, what is happening to you and what

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are the challenges that you're experiencing. And  that is what limits the mindfulness practice or

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activity vastly from being mindful in a way  where what most people kind of misunderstand

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as mindfulness. You're like you're sitting with  your eyes closed in a lotus position and you're

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calming down or you're doing it while yoga, right?  So whatever activity you are engaged in, if it's a

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sport or you're sitting in stillness, you're lying  or you're getting a massage or it's a sound bath,

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it's just the activity, how you use these skills  is kind of independent from that activity. So you

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can always use these skills. But if you want  to enhance your ability to perform within this

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activity, then you need to use these skills in  only those ways that support your performance.

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So let's say we go very simple and you uh you're  sitting in a Keiser machine and you are doing a

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bench press, right? We know about the mind body  connection, right? And a lot of fitness coaches

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are like tapping the muscles. So what is that?  It basically just helps the person that's working

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out to first direct their attention to the muscle  that they should actually be paying attention to,

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to the one that they should be training. And now  the tapping allows them to more easily detect is

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the muscle actually tense or is am I actually  not even engaging my chest and I'm using my

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shoulders too much. So now you are using the  second skill. You're detecting in real time

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which muscle is really tensing up and supposed to  tense up and which one should actually be relaxed.

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And now the third skill can show up by noticing  that oh my god like I'm not doing this right and

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I'm maybe getting I'm starting to be frustrated  right or in even more simple terms I'm doing six

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seven reps and on the eighth rep I'm starting  to be so fatigued that I feel like I can't do

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it anymore and now do I allow this fatigue to  be there and the belief that I can't actually

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do it anymore it's okay that that's there and I  just continue pressing anyway until I actually

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cannot do it. Not just because I can't believe  it, but because the muscle gives in. And already

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you're using the three skills in this particular  scenario. But that's very different than what a

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lot of people start with just paying attention  to their breath, let's say. Yeah, absolutely.

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And I think moving forward in this conversation  because you're so wellversed in the tennis world,

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we can use tennis as an example or draw from  the sport of tennis really for an example. But

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I guess my question is a really simple one which  is why is mindfulness even important in terms of

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performance? Again using tennis as an example like  why why should we even care? I'm sure there are

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plenty of people out there saying I practice. I  am very skilled. My technique both technical and

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tactical are great. Uh what element does this  really add to my game? And is it important for

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everybody or is there a certain population  that really needs this? Right? So that's a

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that's a question for after. But really why is  this important? Like yeah um I mean it's pretty

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simple really to understand by realizing how  do you perform if any one of these skills is

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absent or weak. So let's say playing tennis and  you're about to surf and you need to focus on

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your surf. This could mean a number of things.  So, let's say you need to focus on where you

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are supposed to hit the surf or you're supposed  to focus on making contact in full extension.

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Let's just take one of those two, right? Okay,  that's what your focus needs to be. If your

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focus is somewhere else and you're focusing  on the last point instead that you just lost,

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then your focus is not helping your performance.  So, that's the first skill. you let's say you

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understand you need to focus on the contact but  unwillingly you are focused on the point that you

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just missed. Do you think your surf will be better  if you focus on the contact or do you think that

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you your surf will be unaffected by you thinking  about the past and focusing on it or maybe on the

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on the audience that is yelling just before your  surf, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I play a lot of

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golf and I'll tell you when I focus on a shot  that I didn't hit well, it's doesn't help me on

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the next one. Exactly. Exactly. Right. So, that's  the first skill. You can see does that skill is

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that skill beneficial to my performance or do I  not need it? Second skill, same thing. Now, let's

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say you are paying attention to the ball where you  should be hitting it and you need to be aware of

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it. Okay? You need to be aware of full extension.  Well, you can be aware of a lot of things. People

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say this very often like you need to be present.  You need to be in the moment. But essentially

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that's correct but it's also not very precise  because you can be aware of an infinite amount

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of experiences. Mhm. And when you perform you need  to be aware of a very finite amount of experiences

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only the ones that matter to you. So, one very  common kind of thing that people are unaware

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of until it's too late when they play tennis, even  on the surf, is when there's too much tension. So,

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they're hitting the surf and they might be a  little nervous. And because they're nervous,

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they tighten up. That tightening up just means  your muscles are actually a little bit too tense,

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more tense than they normally are when you're not  nervous. So, if you now are not able to detect

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that you are tense. You have no ability to  relax. The ability for you to relax your arm

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if it tenses up by itself requires you being able  to notice it. If you can't notice it, you can't

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do anything about it. So that's the second skill  how it shows up. Does that make sense? Yes. And

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then the third skill, same thing. Let's stick with  the example of being nervous while you're serving.

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So if you are nervous just before the serve  and you really really have an issue with it,

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you don't want to be nervous and you believe that  you can only serve well if you're not nervous and

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you're trying to get rid of the nervousness of  the feeling of anxiety, then this feeling will

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have a bigger impact on you. It will draw your  attention and you're kind of in an antagonistic

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fighting relationship with this feeling and by  fighting it, it is distracting you more. It will

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be much more difficult to pay attention to the  ball and relaxing if you're also the whole time in

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a basically um kind of struggle with your feeling  of being nervous. So this is how the three skills,

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one example of how these three skills kind of  support each other and how they can benefit

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when you're playing. Yeah, it's interesting just  thinking about the different sports and not only

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different sports but moments within a sport  where you have the opportunity to be thinking

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about these things if needed, right? Like for some  people I say it's maybe best in sports we say well

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you know just be dumb, don't think. Mhm. But there  are certain moments, baseball, golf, tennis, you

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have these natural pauses where there's actually  sometimes maybe too much time to think and that

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can be a negative versus the flow of a basketball  game, you know, outside of maybe free throws or

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these brief pauses, I guess it's happening, but  it's happening really, really quickly or it's

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absent, you know, this idea of mindfulness. What's  your take on that? Like with a sport that is more

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fast-paced. Yeah, perfect. So if you remember like  what mindfulness is these three skills at no point

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in time did we say thinking when you are mindful  you are not trying to think that is a different

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part of the brain so basically the default mode  network certain brain regions that are in charge

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of rumination self-reflection thinking about the  past thinking about the future and so forth right

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when you are practicing mindfulness meaning you  are using these three skills on purpose. You are

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engaging what is called the experiential network  of the brain. That is that part of the brain that

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is in charge of experiencing the senses including  your mind. You can be aware of your thoughts or

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you can be aware of tension or relaxation. You can  be aware of where the ball is and if it should be

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there. But at no point in time when somebody is  trying to be mindful are they trying to think

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intellectually. That is not what you're doing  when you're mindful. Even though as an athlete

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of course you need to think sometimes because  you need to think strategically right what is the

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next thing that I should do or you need to think  through analysis. What did I just do wrong and

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what can I adapt? Okay. So now you are thinking  but this analysis or strategic thinking is not

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mindfulness. So when you are taking on a new  athlete or beginning to work with a new athlete

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and your rel your your working relationship starts  with them. How are you identifying strengths and

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weaknesses within these three pillars? Right?  How do you identify which ones they are strong

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at out of the three and which ones will need some  work? Is that through questioning? Is that through

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observing? like what's your analysis analysis?  Yeah. So, basically it's self-reporting based

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on their practice. Okay. So, most of the time when  somebody starts practicing and wants to integrate

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mindfulness, they start because there's something  that they feel like they could optimize. So,

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there's some degree of interest, right? They feel  like something with their mind, whatever that is,

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is not optimal. So now when you feel like  it's not optimal, whatever that might be,

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you don't even have the language yet. You might be  say, I'm just so anxious sometimes before matches

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or like I'm so it's so hard for me to focus or I  just like don't know how to deal with um with like

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high pressure moments, right? And it kind of ends  there. They don't have a lot of more detail. It's

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just like there's an issue. I don't know what to  do and now what? Okay. So after that, the first

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step is really to explain and teach the athlete  what those skills are. Kind of what we're doing

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right now. And then have them practice the skills.  This talking like mindfulness practice is not

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cognitive therapy or or psychotherapy. It is but  I need to use language in order to explain to you

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what you need to do. Just like I need to use words  to explain to you how to hit a forehand. I could

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demonstrate it also, but maybe it's not going to  communicate all the subtlety. So once there is a

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basic understanding of what to do enough so they  can attempt to use these skills and hopefully they

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will also start to see how they have already been  using the skills in part just not in a strategic

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way. Then you start to report back. They start  to report back. Okay, I tried to do this and this

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what you said and this is challenging for me or  this I don't understand and I don't know how to do

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this. And then you go into these reports and say  okay so in this situation the next time you are

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serving and you're noticing you're getting more  anxious before the serve and you're distracted

00:20:26.800 --> 00:20:34.880
you can do X. And doing X is a basically using  these three skills in a certain way. And there's

00:20:34.880 --> 00:20:40.880
many different ways to use these three skills. And  the athlete has to basically do two things. On the

00:20:40.880 --> 00:20:46.640
one side, they have to start using these skills  so they improve over time. But on the other side,

00:20:46.640 --> 00:20:53.360
they also need to experiment with different  strategies to figure out which technique and

00:20:53.360 --> 00:21:01.760
which strategy works for them. Because not every  technique will be the right one for the same.

00:21:01.760 --> 00:21:06.880
Yeah. And they've probably naturally if they're  at a high level probably do some of these things

00:21:06.880 --> 00:21:12.080
really well already. they're just not aware that  that is mindfulness, you know, or maybe they are,

00:21:12.080 --> 00:21:18.000
but but it's more so about refining those skills  because they're they're up there, you know,

00:21:18.000 --> 00:21:23.600
they're at a high level for a reason, right? Um,  so let's I mean, if you're willing, let's use me

00:21:23.600 --> 00:21:30.000
as an example, I guess. I told you I like playing  golf. When I go to a nice country club or I go to

00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:35.040
a really nice course, I feel a bit anxious. I'm  not alone in that. Why? Because I want to play

00:21:35.040 --> 00:21:41.200
really well at a nice course that I paid for.  Um, I don't know why the impact of my play has

00:21:41.200 --> 00:21:46.800
no impact on anything in the world. I have really  nothing to lose. I just want to have a enjoyable

00:21:46.800 --> 00:21:52.000
experience there. So, off of the first tea, like  many, I'm like, I feel myself getting a little

00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:59.040
ramped up. Even though it probably doesn't matter  in my life, but when I go and play a really casual

00:21:59.040 --> 00:22:05.680
round by myself, I feel very relaxed and I often  end up playing much better. Yeah. Exactly. So

00:22:05.680 --> 00:22:14.240
help me. First off, right, for you to understand  is like whatever technique we will have you try

00:22:14.240 --> 00:22:22.480
the next time you play golf might not work. Just  like let's say you can have the ability to swim,

00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:28.240
but if the waves are too high, you're not good  enough at swimming yet and you will drown anyway.

00:22:28.240 --> 00:22:35.440
So in order to be able to swim in these kind of  waves, you need to swim more, train more. So you

00:22:35.440 --> 00:22:40.400
can handle these bigger waves without drowning.  Okay. As a metaphor. So in the same situation,

00:22:40.400 --> 00:22:45.280
telling me I stink. I stink at golf and you can't  help me with that. No, no. It's just it depends on

00:22:45.280 --> 00:22:52.960
how intense is this nervousness or anxiety that  you're experiencing. And your mindfulness skills

00:22:52.960 --> 00:23:02.400
might not be able yet without training to manage  this degree of intensity. If the degree is lower,

00:23:02.400 --> 00:23:09.280
it might, but we don't know. I'm just saying just  because you're going to use this set of skills in

00:23:09.280 --> 00:23:14.960
a certain way and it doesn't work doesn't mean  it's wrong or you can't do it. It's just your

00:23:14.960 --> 00:23:20.560
skill hasn't trained enough. Okay. So, let  me ask you when you are what is the situation

00:23:20.560 --> 00:23:26.960
exactly when you are getting nervous like take  me into that moment? Where are you standing? What

00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:33.520
are you doing? Um, usually when I'm warming  up, I'll be hitting the ball just fine. Um,

00:23:33.520 --> 00:23:40.720
I'm on the range, right? A couple steps away from  maybe the first tee. Um, I'll hit one poorly. I'm

00:23:40.720 --> 00:23:45.680
not very good. Um, but every, you know, I'm an  amateur, so every now and then I hit one really,

00:23:45.680 --> 00:23:50.400
really poorly. And I'm like, "Oh man, that  wasn't great." And that's a negative thought that

00:23:50.400 --> 00:23:55.840
appears. And now that negative thought is in my  head as I start to swing. And I think more about

00:23:55.840 --> 00:24:01.760
the previous poor swing that I took and less about  just like enjoying my environment and where I am.

00:24:01.760 --> 00:24:08.000
I find that when I am relaxed, I do play very  well. When I'm not like anybody else, I probably

00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:13.040
tense up and all of a sudden mechanics don't feel  right. I don't know what really I'm putting. But

00:24:13.040 --> 00:24:17.040
you're still in the driving range. You're warming  up or you already now on the tea. Yeah. Yeah.

00:24:17.040 --> 00:24:21.280
Warming up. It typically happens around then.  I actually found out that if I don't warm up,

00:24:21.280 --> 00:24:26.560
I tend to play a lot better. I just go out and hit  and I just I kind of just stop warming up because

00:24:26.560 --> 00:24:31.760
I'll be warming up just fine and it's one shot and  all of a sudden it's like uh oh bad thought and

00:24:31.760 --> 00:24:36.400
now it's I'm thinking about really I don't know  what I'm thinking about my mind just starts going

00:24:36.400 --> 00:24:44.240
kind of fast you know great great okay so now tell  me when you are playing well okay before you made

00:24:44.240 --> 00:24:52.160
that mistake what are you paying attention to  what are you focused on uh usually enjoying my

00:24:52.160 --> 00:24:57.680
environment I'm not really thinking about No, no,  not not thinking. But like what you're thinking

00:24:57.680 --> 00:25:02.960
about is just like either words in your head or  images in your head. But when you're playing golf,

00:25:02.960 --> 00:25:09.600
you are going to be focusing maybe on watching the  ball, on your posture, on your technique, right?

00:25:09.600 --> 00:25:15.840
On how relaxed you are or where you're supposed to  be aiming, a technical cue, right? anything that

00:25:15.840 --> 00:25:20.640
you're paying attention to when you're actually  swinging, when you're about to hit the golf ball

00:25:20.640 --> 00:25:26.400
on the driving range, when you're feeling relaxed  and everything is going well. Yeah, usually my

00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:32.000
body positioning, just where where the ball is,  where my feet is, like how close I am to the ball,

00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:38.480
um where my head is in relation to the ball, um  am I standing tall, am I slightly hunched over,

00:25:38.480 --> 00:25:44.560
am I too far away? You know, am I sticking my butt  out? Um a couple of things like that. and and I

00:25:44.560 --> 00:25:51.440
really focus more on body positioning, I would  say. Okay, great. So, you're focused relative

00:25:51.440 --> 00:25:57.600
to the ball. Yeah. Yes. Perfect. Okay. So, you're  focused on posture relative to the ball. Mhm. And

00:25:57.600 --> 00:26:03.280
then I'm assuming you're not like rehearsing that  in your head saying like, "Oh, my feet need to be

00:26:03.280 --> 00:26:08.560
in this position." And you do it. It's more like  you just feel it. You feel it. Maybe you see it

00:26:08.560 --> 00:26:15.120
in your mind. It's a lot more feel. I find that  if something goes off then I start thinking about

00:26:15.120 --> 00:26:22.640
that a little more too detailed. Yes. Perfect.  Okay. So you when you play well you are focused

00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:32.320
on feeling your body and what you are trying  to feel is a certain kind of feeling which you

00:26:32.320 --> 00:26:39.200
experience if you're in the right posture. Right.  Is that correct so far? Correct. Yes. Okay. Good.

00:26:39.200 --> 00:26:50.240
Now when So we know where your attention is your  body. Yeah, definitely we know what you are aware

00:26:50.240 --> 00:26:59.200
of which is posture relative to the body. Second  skill you're doing that already. And are you

00:26:59.200 --> 00:27:04.800
aquinomous? Are you allowing things to be as they  are? Yes. Relatively easy in that moment because

00:27:04.800 --> 00:27:10.800
you are relaxed. Meaning there's nothing. You're  not overthinking things yet. You're not nervous,

00:27:10.800 --> 00:27:17.200
right? So, it's relatively easy to be aquinomous  if there's nothing that you dislike and nothing

00:27:17.200 --> 00:27:23.120
that you are like worried to lose. Yeah. Does  that make sense? So, all three skills are active

00:27:23.120 --> 00:27:32.000
in that moment. Okay. Now, you make a mistake  once or twice. Now, where does your attention

00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:39.760
go? You already were saying it. Yeah. I I start  to overanalyze my body positioning. Um, and you

00:27:39.760 --> 00:27:46.640
and how do you do that? Are you still feeling or  analyzing means what? Yeah, I'm really trying to

00:27:46.640 --> 00:27:54.080
like assess more than feel and have a better idea  of like, okay, is my foot like perfectly aligned?

00:27:54.080 --> 00:27:58.960
Are my toes pointed forward? Like what I actually  start to think about my upper body then and think

00:27:58.960 --> 00:28:05.120
about like, am I actually rotating my body at all  or am I not? And when I'm hitting the ball well,

00:28:05.120 --> 00:28:09.840
I'm not thinking about that. When I am hitting  it poorly, I'm actually consciously thinking

00:28:09.840 --> 00:28:19.680
about am I rotating my shoulders. Perfect. Okay,  great. So now you know when you are playing well,

00:28:19.680 --> 00:28:25.520
you're focused on feeling and you're aware of a  certain kind of feeling like we said. And when

00:28:25.520 --> 00:28:31.920
you start playing badly, you are focused on your  thoughts. You're not focused on feeling anymore at

00:28:31.920 --> 00:28:37.920
all. Right? And you are now analyzing. So you're  not actually tracking anymore. You're more like

00:28:37.920 --> 00:28:44.880
lost in the thought which obviously also we have  to point out is not generally wrong. If you make

00:28:44.880 --> 00:28:52.320
a mistake, it's okay to analyze to a degree like  is there something that I did wrong. You recap

00:28:52.320 --> 00:29:00.400
for a moment and now you realize yes my foot  was turned out too much or my head was too far

00:29:00.400 --> 00:29:07.600
behind. Let's just say okay now with that piece of  information knowing that you thought for a moment

00:29:07.600 --> 00:29:20.080
you analyzed now you want to return your attention  back to the body and back to being aware of your

00:29:20.080 --> 00:29:29.040
posture relative to the ball including the two new  pieces that you figured out through your analysis.

00:29:29.040 --> 00:29:36.640
is your po your head posture and your foot, let's  just say, but now you need to feel it. You're not

00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:42.880
thinking about that anymore. That thought just  helped you to try to notice that. So now you need

00:29:42.880 --> 00:29:49.040
to notice that. But because you made a mistake,  there is a new experience present for you. You

00:29:49.040 --> 00:29:57.600
now also have a feeling of nervousness maybe in  the chest. And you might still be thinking, okay,

00:29:57.600 --> 00:30:04.080
you cannot turn your thoughts off with a snap of a  finger, right? But just because there are thoughts

00:30:04.080 --> 00:30:12.480
and your mind is thinking, that doesn't mean you  need to focus on your thoughts. That would be the

00:30:12.480 --> 00:30:19.680
same thing as saying, I can only focus on hitting  the golf ball if there is no one talking behind

00:30:19.680 --> 00:30:26.320
me. It's a it's a voice that you hear behind you,  but you can still focus on feeling your body. And

00:30:26.320 --> 00:30:31.600
just as much, if you have thoughts in your mind,  you don't have to pay attention to them. You can

00:30:31.600 --> 00:30:39.280
learn to pay attention to what you need to even  though you are thinking, but there's no focus

00:30:39.280 --> 00:30:44.320
on thinking, nor are you trying to fight the  thoughts. You're not trying to get rid of them.

00:30:44.320 --> 00:30:49.920
If I'm thinking, I can't play. If that's your  go-to, you're already done. The moment you start

00:30:49.920 --> 00:30:54.400
thinking, so you start to change your relationship  with your thoughts. You're like, "Okay, that's

00:30:54.400 --> 00:30:59.920
what the mind is there for." The mind is there  to think, and now I return my attention. So you

00:30:59.920 --> 00:31:06.400
allow those thoughts. You allow the feeling that  might be unpleasant if it's there. And you want

00:31:06.400 --> 00:31:15.280
to return your awareness and concentration back  to exactly that where it is when you play well.

00:31:15.280 --> 00:31:24.240
And already you are doing a mindfulness practice  in that moment. Does that make sense? Yeah,

00:31:24.240 --> 00:31:31.920
it does. So now easier said than done. Your mind  might have so much power over you these thoughts

00:31:31.920 --> 00:31:40.240
that they hijack your attention. Right. You will  now try to pay attention to your body, but every

00:31:40.240 --> 00:31:44.480
second or two your attention goes back to your  thoughts and you get lost in your thoughts.

00:31:44.480 --> 00:31:49.520
Yeah. Okay. So then the waves are too high for  that moment. But that means still you will try.

00:31:49.520 --> 00:31:54.720
That's the practice. Practicing doesn't mean doing  it perfectly. Practicing means you're trying to

00:31:54.720 --> 00:32:03.440
do something you can't do perfectly and you do  it over and over and over time it will improve.

00:32:03.440 --> 00:32:11.360
Okay. I was very helpful. Um next time I  go out there I'm gonna shoot you a text.

00:32:11.360 --> 00:32:18.400
Yes. Yes. Exactly. just had a super intrusive  thought. Um, acknowledge it and moving on. Yes,

00:32:18.400 --> 00:32:24.320
exactly. And the moving on, remember, does  not mean that the thought disappears. It

00:32:24.320 --> 00:32:30.640
means allowing the thought and paying attention to  something that you want regardless of the thought

00:32:30.640 --> 00:32:40.720
being present. Got it? Got it. Okay. So when we  get now into skill building, okay, and we try

00:32:40.720 --> 00:32:47.120
to pick out specific elements of skills, how do  we make it specific to that person's environment

00:32:47.120 --> 00:32:52.640
and background and upbringing? Like how do  you break down, let's dive into number two,

00:32:52.640 --> 00:32:57.600
which is awareness and clarity, ability to track,  you know, what you're experiencing this detection

00:32:57.600 --> 00:33:06.720
and distinguishing. What's the next breakdown  there of subsklls? So um the the breakdown of the

00:33:06.720 --> 00:33:12.880
subs skills is basically you're working on that  all the time. It's not like first one and then the

00:33:12.880 --> 00:33:17.680
other. It always depends on just the situation  that you're in. And the same thing with the

00:33:17.680 --> 00:33:25.040
breakdown of concentration. So concentration has  this basically division into sustained attention

00:33:25.040 --> 00:33:30.720
meaning paying attention to something for a long  time. Then the opposite of that which is momentary

00:33:30.720 --> 00:33:36.480
attention paying attention to something for a  short time. Selective attention which is your

00:33:36.480 --> 00:33:43.840
ability to pay attention to something if you need  to make a choice between two or more relevant

00:33:43.840 --> 00:33:49.920
objects of concentration. And then four which  we just talked about executive attention which

00:33:49.920 --> 00:33:54.480
is your ability to pay attention to what you want  when there is a distraction. And the distraction

00:33:54.480 --> 00:33:59.600
is not just external but the distraction can be  your thought or your feeling and you learn to

00:33:59.600 --> 00:34:06.960
pay attention to something even though there is  a force pulling at your attention. So you work on

00:34:06.960 --> 00:34:15.200
and then the subskll of detection and discernment  is the is the two divisions within awareness and

00:34:15.200 --> 00:34:23.760
which subskll you are kind of working on will  always be determined by the situation that you

00:34:23.760 --> 00:34:33.120
find yourself in. You can't force necessarily all  of these subsklls to work. So let's say you are

00:34:33.120 --> 00:34:39.840
playing golf. Then we're the same example. There  is no distraction. Well, okay, there is no way for

00:34:39.840 --> 00:34:47.040
you to work on executive attention in that moment.  But the moment you start to get distracted, rather

00:34:47.040 --> 00:34:52.560
than looking at that as an issue as like now  I'm distracted again, you can actually turn this

00:34:52.560 --> 00:34:58.160
into a positive. This is an opportunity for you to  work on the subs skill of your executive attention

00:34:58.160 --> 00:35:05.840
because you can only improve that if there is  something distracting you. And this is how we

00:35:05.840 --> 00:35:12.960
individualize the practice for each athlete. So  now once somebody starts practicing and they start

00:35:12.960 --> 00:35:18.640
reporting exactly what you reported, right? just  in their sport and playing tennis and it's before

00:35:18.640 --> 00:35:23.600
the match or it's during the change of ends and  they're saying like this is what's going on and

00:35:23.600 --> 00:35:30.400
but this is what I would want to go on and I don't  know how to solve this. We break it down. Okay,

00:35:30.400 --> 00:35:38.240
what are you experiencing? What is challenging  for you? And where do you think by your own

00:35:38.240 --> 00:35:44.080
experiences your attention should be? You knew it.  I just had to ask three, four questions. Mhm. You

00:35:44.080 --> 00:35:50.080
knew if you're playing well, I'm paying attention  to my body. I'm feeling it. I'm not analyzing it.

00:35:50.080 --> 00:35:54.800
So like with every other player, they have that  knowledge. They understand that. Yeah. If things

00:35:54.800 --> 00:35:59.840
are going well, this and this is happening. And if  you talk about a little bit, they have like a very

00:35:59.840 --> 00:36:08.640
good way to to describe it. And then you start  to kind of give them a goalpost. They're like,

00:36:08.640 --> 00:36:17.040
"Now I understand what I try need to try to do  even if I can't do it yet." So, I'm sitting at

00:36:17.040 --> 00:36:22.320
the I'm sitting on the bench between games and now  I'm just thinking about like how I messed up the

00:36:22.320 --> 00:36:30.000
last game and the mistake that I made in order to  get broken. And now you notice those thoughts and

00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:36.080
you turn your attention to the body. The feeling  of relaxation would be one technique. you anchor

00:36:36.080 --> 00:36:41.760
your attention away from an unpleasant experience.  But there's infinite amount of other techniques.

00:36:41.760 --> 00:36:51.680
And the way you start to tailor the technique  to the individual athlete is then really by

00:36:51.680 --> 00:36:59.360
experimenting. There is no way that somebody will  tell me every situation that they're in perfectly

00:36:59.360 --> 00:37:04.800
and then that will result in me knowing, oh, that  is the technique that will be perfect for you.

00:37:04.800 --> 00:37:10.720
I could not know. They need to figure that out.  And the reality is that there is probably not

00:37:10.720 --> 00:37:16.800
one technique that will work all the time. Even  in the same situation, it might by it might work

00:37:16.800 --> 00:37:23.840
a few times and maybe after a week or a month  or a year, they need to switch it a little bit.

00:37:23.840 --> 00:37:31.600
So the real kind of key to unlock is not to learn  three, four, five different techniques that are

00:37:31.600 --> 00:37:38.000
like hopefully this is it and instead you need to  learn to create your own techniques. So you are

00:37:38.000 --> 00:37:45.120
adaptable and malleable in every moment. You're  not you're not so rigid anymore. Yeah. Do you

00:37:45.120 --> 00:37:50.560
find that when athletes start speaking to you, you  have two groups or two buckets? Do you have those

00:37:50.560 --> 00:37:55.440
that tend to think a lot and those that tend to  feel like when they describe what they're feeling

00:37:55.440 --> 00:38:02.240
versus thinking or it could just be a mixture?  Yeah. All three. All three. I mean there people

00:38:02.240 --> 00:38:08.240
some people feel like everything is in their head.  Yeah. Because all of their attention is there. The

00:38:08.240 --> 00:38:13.840
reality is everybody is experiencing everything  mostly. Right. Of course some people get more

00:38:13.840 --> 00:38:19.200
anxious, other people get more angry, other people  are calmer in general, right? I mean everybody has

00:38:19.200 --> 00:38:25.840
different nervous systems and reacts differently.  But that being said, the fun uh fundamental

00:38:25.840 --> 00:38:32.000
principles still apply. Everybody is experiencing  emotions, right? Everybody reacts in some shape

00:38:32.000 --> 00:38:42.320
or form. And then the question is just but what  experience is drawing their attention? So, if one

00:38:42.320 --> 00:38:48.000
group of athletes might mostly pay attention  to what's going through their head and they

00:38:48.000 --> 00:38:52.800
hardly ever notice what's going on in their body,  right? Not because nothing is going on, it's just

00:38:52.800 --> 00:38:57.920
they don't pay attention to it. So, it seems like  nothing is going on and it's all in their head.

00:38:57.920 --> 00:39:03.200
And then the flip side is true, too. Some people  are just paying attention to what they're feeling.

00:39:03.200 --> 00:39:10.560
They're very interraceptively aware, right? but  they're not very aware of their thought processes

00:39:10.560 --> 00:39:17.440
and so their mind is doesn't seem like that big of  an issue but what they feel is a huge issue like

00:39:17.440 --> 00:39:23.600
I get so anxious the feeling is so terrible  right yeah that like I can't handle it and

00:39:23.600 --> 00:39:31.600
then there is a very big group in the middle that  experiences that notices both but sometimes more

00:39:31.600 --> 00:39:38.080
the mind sometimes more what they feel Can you  go into detail a little bit about the impact that

00:39:38.080 --> 00:39:48.800
mindfulness can have on enhancing recovery? Yeah.  So, with recovery, there's like two big um kind

00:39:48.800 --> 00:39:55.040
of buckets within recovery, I would say, right?  One is just like the recovery from intensity like

00:39:55.040 --> 00:40:00.560
you're breaking your body down on purpose with  every training session. And now, how can you

00:40:00.560 --> 00:40:08.080
enhance recovery? So your body is at a state where  you can kind of break it down again. And then

00:40:08.080 --> 00:40:15.760
there is the recovery from injury. You actually  injured your body structurally and now you have

00:40:15.760 --> 00:40:21.840
a break of a week or 3 months after 9 months  after an ACL surgery or something like that.

00:40:21.840 --> 00:40:27.200
So let's talk about like the general recovery  first. Okay, you're not actually injured. So in

00:40:27.200 --> 00:40:35.040
that case we know that the most effective way to  recover the most important is sleep. Without sleep

00:40:35.040 --> 00:40:39.760
you're dunzo basically. How does mindfulness  help sleep? First there needs to be an issue

00:40:39.760 --> 00:40:47.280
with sleep some kind right either you just have  trouble sleeping in general or that's one thing.

00:40:47.280 --> 00:40:51.920
So mindfulness is very helpful in certain cases  there and we can talk about that. And then the

00:40:51.920 --> 00:40:57.280
other one is you don't have a general issue with  sleeping. you just don't have a good good sleep

00:40:57.280 --> 00:41:04.320
hygiene. Like your behavior impacts negatively  your sleep routine and therefore you don't sleep

00:41:04.320 --> 00:41:10.640
so well because you drink too much alcohol or you  look too much on your you're doom scrolling before

00:41:10.640 --> 00:41:15.680
you're going to sleep or when you wake up you go  on your phone you know and read emails from your

00:41:15.680 --> 00:41:26.560
boss that's upset or whatever it may be. Yeah.  So in either case, mindfulness shows up there

00:41:26.560 --> 00:41:37.200
because when you want when you are supposed to  sleep, you intellectually understand sleeping

00:41:37.200 --> 00:41:46.080
would be right, but you're doing something  that is making your sleep worse. Most of the

00:41:46.080 --> 00:41:53.680
time you will be doing something that you want to  be doing. There is a desire to look at the phone,

00:41:53.680 --> 00:42:01.440
right? There is a desire to stay out and drink  with your friends and go to bed later. It's not

00:42:01.440 --> 00:42:07.520
that you don't understand that doing this activity  isn't good for you. It's just you don't prioritize

00:42:07.520 --> 00:42:16.320
the sleep. You want to have fun right now or you  want to do this. Again, not because you don't like

00:42:16.320 --> 00:42:22.000
sleeping. You don't have an aversion towards  sleeping. You just have a very strong desire

00:42:22.000 --> 00:42:31.280
towards this one activity that just happens to  interfere with sleeping. So the third skill that

00:42:31.280 --> 00:42:40.320
we were talking about was allowing experiences  to exist, right? Without clinging to them if they

00:42:40.320 --> 00:42:46.000
are pleasant, without suppressing them if they  are unpleasant. So if there is a let's go very

00:42:46.000 --> 00:42:51.920
simple. I'm in bed. Okay. I even planned on going  to sleep right now and I look at my phone and now

00:42:51.920 --> 00:43:01.920
I open up social media and I sleep and I just want  to scroll. You can notice this desire. You do not

00:43:01.920 --> 00:43:10.560
need the desire to disappear in order to be able  to put the phone down. Just like you don't need

00:43:10.560 --> 00:43:17.520
the thought of analysis of your golf swing to  disappear in order to pay attention to feeling

00:43:17.520 --> 00:43:27.440
the body. But in either case, that requires this  third skill, your ability to try to be okay with

00:43:27.440 --> 00:43:33.760
the thought and to try to be okay with like the  urge to look at your phone. So there is a urge,

00:43:33.760 --> 00:43:39.760
there is the desire to look at your phone. But  with more mindfulness, you start to be able to

00:43:39.760 --> 00:43:45.840
do things that you understand are good for  you in the future, even though in this very

00:43:45.840 --> 00:43:54.720
second they're unpleasant. So it's basically  delayed gratification. With more mindfulness,

00:43:54.720 --> 00:44:03.760
you're not acting exclusively anymore on desire  and aversion. I want it, I do it. Disregarding the

00:44:03.760 --> 00:44:10.320
consequences and I don't want it, I'm not doing  it also regardless of the consequences. And with

00:44:10.320 --> 00:44:17.120
mindfulness, you start to be able to do more of  the things that are good for you, whether they

00:44:17.120 --> 00:44:23.600
are pleasant right now or you don't like them so  much, right? and vice versa. You start to be able

00:44:23.600 --> 00:44:29.280
to do fewer of the things that are not so good  for you. Even though you really like it, but you

00:44:29.280 --> 00:44:35.600
understand it's not helpful. But I mean, everybody  has that understanding. Everybody in the world who

00:44:35.600 --> 00:44:42.240
smokes knows it's not good to smoke. Everybody  who really sleeps badly knows sleep not sleeping

00:44:42.240 --> 00:44:47.200
enough isn't good for their energy the next day  and for many other things. Everybody who drinks a

00:44:47.200 --> 00:44:56.400
lot of alcohol knows, understands intellectually  it's not good for me. But it doesn't matter

00:44:56.400 --> 00:45:04.000
to the degree, right? But that is like  also a perfect kind of example of how

00:45:04.000 --> 00:45:09.040
your intellectual understanding of things  is not sufficient. It doesn't equal skills.

00:45:09.040 --> 00:45:14.560
under explaining to somebody how they need to do  a bench press or explaining how they need to swing

00:45:14.560 --> 00:45:22.080
the golf club or me explaining how to do a surf  doesn't mean I can do it better than them. I was

00:45:22.080 --> 00:45:30.400
just giving this example to another client the  other day like I know more intellectually than

00:45:30.400 --> 00:45:35.760
any current pro on the tour. I know more about  the forehand, how it works biomechanically,

00:45:35.760 --> 00:45:41.680
how to teach it, what it does, all the nuances,  but and I have a good forehand and I've played

00:45:41.680 --> 00:45:47.200
tennis for many years, but my forehand is not  as good as anybody on the tour right now. So,

00:45:47.200 --> 00:45:53.360
what you understand intellectually and what you  are able to do, it is not directly correlated.

00:45:53.360 --> 00:46:00.640
It's just supportive in the best case scenario.  Right. Right. So in the same case, this is where

00:46:00.640 --> 00:46:07.280
mindfulness comes in comes in for recovery,  for sleep. I know, I understand this is not

00:46:07.280 --> 00:46:14.240
good for me, but just because I know it, it's not  enough. I need to be able to develop this ability

00:46:14.240 --> 00:46:23.200
to allow the things that I really want to do, but  I know they're not good for me to be there. Okay.

00:46:23.200 --> 00:46:30.240
So there is this desire and I don't have to  act on it. Not only if the desire isn't there

00:46:30.240 --> 00:46:37.280
anymore. That's what everybody is trying to not  everybody but a lot of people solution is get rid

00:46:37.280 --> 00:46:44.160
of the desire then I'm free. That's not the real  freedom. The real freedom is whether the desire

00:46:44.160 --> 00:46:49.120
is there or not and you are not forced to act  on it then you are really free. Yeah. Thank you

00:46:49.120 --> 00:46:53.360
for providing insight on that. And one thing  I was thinking about as you were talking was

00:46:53.360 --> 00:46:58.400
ultimately as athletes or as high performers, we  always experience frustration and frustration is

00:46:58.400 --> 00:47:03.600
inevitably something that you will go through  during the course of your performance. So how

00:47:03.600 --> 00:47:09.520
do you work with those emotions of frustration?  How do you implement mindfulness to combat those

00:47:09.520 --> 00:47:17.280
feelings or to get you back into a place where you  can perform at a high level? Yeah. Great. I mean

00:47:17.280 --> 00:47:24.800
frustration is very interesting actually because  frustration is in no shape or form a bad thing.

00:47:24.800 --> 00:47:31.040
Actually frustration essentially means you care  you want to achieve something you're trying to do

00:47:31.040 --> 00:47:37.840
it it's not happening and if you care about it and  what you care about isn't happening the way you

00:47:37.840 --> 00:47:45.200
want it you're a natural reaction to that will  be that you're frustrated. So no issue so far,

00:47:45.200 --> 00:47:52.000
right? Mhm. The issue becomes when you act on  your frustration meaning or rather I should say

00:47:52.000 --> 00:48:00.000
you react to your frustration and this reaction  is not in your best interest. If your reaction

00:48:00.000 --> 00:48:07.120
is in your best interest then not even that is  a bad thing. So that we have to kind of uncouple

00:48:07.120 --> 00:48:14.000
that from one another. So first thing frustration  is not a bad thing. Okay. It can be good and it

00:48:14.000 --> 00:48:23.520
can be not so good for you. One of the benefit  beneficial elements of frustration is actually

00:48:23.520 --> 00:48:29.680
I think Huberman talked about that very kind of  eloquently in one of his millions of episodes

00:48:29.680 --> 00:48:37.040
is how frustration is really an essential part  of the learning process. So when you start to

00:48:37.040 --> 00:48:43.520
do something that you're not so good at, you make  mistakes, right? And right by making mistakes your

00:48:43.520 --> 00:48:52.320
brain enters a mode of plasticity. So once your  brain is in a mode of plasticity, meaning it can

00:48:52.320 --> 00:48:58.080
change and adapt based on your experience, you can  now basically start learning more effectively. If

00:48:58.080 --> 00:49:06.000
you now get frustrated while you're making these  mistakes, the benefit to that is is that once you

00:49:06.000 --> 00:49:15.920
do get it right, there will be an increased  release of dopamine and epinephrine and that

00:49:15.920 --> 00:49:23.360
is beneficial for your learning process. So, the  only time frustration is a negative, so to speak,

00:49:23.360 --> 00:49:30.480
for your performance is if frustration results in  you either quitting or starting to do things that

00:49:30.480 --> 00:49:36.560
are really not good for your performance. But  other than that, if you are frustrated and you

00:49:36.560 --> 00:49:45.040
kind of hang in there and you once again allow  the frustration, you understand the benefits of

00:49:45.040 --> 00:49:53.440
frustration in the long term, you can get to the  point where you enjoy being frustrated because you

00:49:53.440 --> 00:49:59.840
know how good it will be for you. Does that make  sense? It makes a ton of sense. I can't wait to

00:49:59.840 --> 00:50:05.680
rewire myself and and experience a little bit  of frustration. Yes, I'm frustrated. Let's go.

00:50:05.680 --> 00:50:14.640
Exactly. That's how I'm going to start reacting.  Yes. Just a feeling of frustration. Uh-huh. Yes.

00:50:14.640 --> 00:50:21.600
Yes. Yes. Fascinating. So, okay. A lot to chew on  here. A lot of great things you've shared and and

00:50:21.600 --> 00:50:25.440
I'm already thinking about myself, my previous  performances, where I could have used some of

00:50:25.440 --> 00:50:29.760
this and and how I can use this moving forward  in my recreational golf game. Could you share

00:50:29.760 --> 00:50:34.160
I mean I know you work with a lot of athletes now  especially those on tour like you had mentioned.

00:50:34.160 --> 00:50:38.800
Can you maybe share is there a story or two  regarding mindfulness this implementation of

00:50:38.800 --> 00:50:45.360
mindfulness that you know you constantly go back  to or that you think about as like a success story

00:50:45.360 --> 00:50:51.200
or something you'd want to share? Yeah, I mean  there's a lot of stories actually because we're

00:50:51.200 --> 00:50:58.800
also writing the book right now. The B of the  book is many many stories like that. Uh maybe I

00:50:58.800 --> 00:51:05.120
will like start with a story where Mike who I'm  writing the book with his very first match that

00:51:05.120 --> 00:51:11.040
he played on tour in singles was at the US Open  against Agassi who was you know you're talking

00:51:11.040 --> 00:51:18.320
about Agassy and he was his big idol you know  right and he plays him he's young center court

00:51:18.320 --> 00:51:28.080
full stadium and he was so anxious and so nervous  that He basically didn't pay any attention to

00:51:28.080 --> 00:51:34.720
playing the match. All he was paying attention to  was how John McEnroe was kind of watching him and

00:51:34.720 --> 00:51:40.000
commentating and thinking about what John Meenroe  thought about how he was playing. Was he doing a

00:51:40.000 --> 00:51:45.200
good job? Right. And then and then all of a sudden  four games later he's like he was just playing

00:51:45.200 --> 00:51:53.200
on autopilot and thinking about everything and  totally mind wandering while playing tennis. Okay.

00:51:53.200 --> 00:52:00.400
While it was the most horrific experience of his  life because he was so anxious and so nervous that

00:52:00.400 --> 00:52:06.880
after the first set he was totally drained and  like basically couldn't run anymore. Right. The

00:52:06.880 --> 00:52:15.680
success story of this is that this was such a hor  horrific experience for him. And this was going on

00:52:15.680 --> 00:52:21.520
for 4 days because he saw the draw playing against  Agassi four days before he played the match. And

00:52:21.520 --> 00:52:26.480
for 4 days he was freaking himself out like what  he's going to do and this and that and his coach

00:52:26.480 --> 00:52:31.360
is telling him like you have to focus on this, you  have to be positive, right? and everything that he

00:52:31.360 --> 00:52:38.960
did was just like failing miserably. Without this  experience though, without four days of suffering

00:52:38.960 --> 00:52:44.800
and struggling and playing on the biggest stage  in t the tennis world against the biggest tennis

00:52:44.800 --> 00:52:53.120
player at that time made him realize, wow, I mean  his mind is really out of control. If something

00:52:53.120 --> 00:52:59.440
starts to matter to him so much, it doesn't matter  how good he's at tennis, he can't play. He's like

00:52:59.440 --> 00:53:08.320
below 50% capacity basically at that moment.  And it resulted in him being so motivated to

00:53:08.320 --> 00:53:16.000
develop his mind that he started to meditate for  the next 30 years slowly progressively increasing

00:53:16.000 --> 00:53:22.800
it increasing it increasing it. And now there's a  few players that have been meditating you know in

00:53:22.800 --> 00:53:28.000
all the sports we've heard about it. Jookovich  has talked about it but I mean this is a little

00:53:28.000 --> 00:53:33.440
hypothetical but like we know a lot of players  and of players of course I don't think there is

00:53:33.440 --> 00:53:39.920
a single tennis player in the world in the history  of tennis that has meditated more than Mike he has

00:53:39.920 --> 00:53:48.320
now meditated for 30 years somewhere between one  to four hours a day training his mind spending the

00:53:48.320 --> 00:53:53.840
same amount of time developing his mind that he  has spent developing his body and his technical

00:53:53.840 --> 00:54:02.000
techical and strategical skills. And it's a it's  a very inspiring story, very kind of funny and

00:54:02.000 --> 00:54:08.800
eyeopening. And so I hope that if we communicate  that well enough also in the book that people will

00:54:08.800 --> 00:54:13.440
kind of see themselves in it like everything that  he has experienced in part they have experienced

00:54:13.440 --> 00:54:21.520
and if he was able to kind of pull through that  that basically every anybody can. Yeah. And I

00:54:21.520 --> 00:54:25.520
can't even imagine what that feeling was like.  He probably was on another planet. Didn't even

00:54:25.520 --> 00:54:32.160
realize he was playing a tennis match. Yeah.  Um, so I've come to learn too that you're now

00:54:32.160 --> 00:54:37.920
teaching as a professor a course on mindfulness  at USC, right? Mhm. Can you tell us a little about

00:54:37.920 --> 00:54:44.560
that course and just like this opportunity and  Yes, that's great. actually you know when I went

00:54:44.560 --> 00:54:50.560
started integrating mindfulness into tennis around  like 15 years ago or so and I kind of made that my

00:54:50.560 --> 00:54:55.200
main focus you know tennis was my focus my whole  life and then I started practicing mindfulness

00:54:55.200 --> 00:55:02.160
for myself kind of really noticing like like  all the weaknesses of myself and also like Mike

00:55:02.160 --> 00:55:07.520
basically being motivated to change those once I  realized this is actually possible right because

00:55:07.520 --> 00:55:12.960
I learned about it heard about it and then I  started teaching it my big goal like big dream

00:55:12.960 --> 00:55:20.160
of mine was to incorporate that into universities  because I kind of studied like did the mindfulness

00:55:20.160 --> 00:55:25.840
training at UCLA. One of my first attempts was  incorporating mindfulness for athletes in UCLA,

00:55:25.840 --> 00:55:30.640
but that kind of like a little difficult  in universities in general because of the

00:55:30.640 --> 00:55:35.600
politics and it's complicated kind of like a lot  of people involved. And then many years later I

00:55:35.600 --> 00:55:41.840
get approached by Linda Yarren Weston who kind  of started the mindfulness course at USC as like

00:55:41.840 --> 00:55:49.600
a two unit elective and she brought me in because  she had heard of me incorporating into sports and

00:55:49.600 --> 00:55:54.480
there's just not that many people doing that. Most  people are kind of focused on people really having

00:55:54.480 --> 00:56:01.040
a hard time suffering, you know, kind of just some  kind of a disorder. And my focus was more like

00:56:01.040 --> 00:56:05.440
there's a lot of people doing that, but I also  want to focus on people who just love what they're

00:56:05.440 --> 00:56:10.240
doing and they want to use mindfulness to improve  what they're already doing, not only because you

00:56:10.240 --> 00:56:15.120
feel like you've hit rock bottom. And she liked  that so much that she said well once you come

00:56:15.120 --> 00:56:20.160
into the university like maybe hopefully at one  point there will be the opportunity to launch your

00:56:20.160 --> 00:56:27.600
own course for athletes also. And now a few years  later so that was last year three semesters ago I

00:56:27.600 --> 00:56:33.040
started the first introduction to mindfulness with  athletic performance course at USC which has never

00:56:33.040 --> 00:56:39.280
existed there and now I'm teaching three courses  on that and I love it. It's that population of

00:56:39.280 --> 00:56:47.040
like young students, you know, and their twist and  being open is is one of my favorite things I do.

00:56:47.040 --> 00:56:54.720
It really is like a great group of people and I'm  there with them sharing with them what's possible,

00:56:54.720 --> 00:57:00.480
things that they don't know about yet and  it it has a great impact on them. So, yeah,

00:57:00.480 --> 00:57:05.760
that's really cool. That's that's really exciting  and I'm glad that you have that opportunity and

00:57:05.760 --> 00:57:09.760
to start having these conversations with people  who are maybe interested in performance, younger

00:57:09.760 --> 00:57:14.400
athletes, even just younger populations where hey,  maybe this doesn't maybe don't even go into sport

00:57:14.400 --> 00:57:18.560
in the future, but it's something they're just  conscious of with their own life experiences

00:57:18.560 --> 00:57:24.160
outside of that. I think there's a broader  application to that. Um, I have just like one or

00:57:24.160 --> 00:57:28.240
two more questions. Actually, one I was thinking  about, which I should have followed up with,

00:57:28.240 --> 00:57:34.480
was if you could go back to that moment with Mike  versus Agassi and you could have a moment to talk

00:57:34.480 --> 00:57:41.520
with Mike in the middle of that match, what would  you have said to him or how would you have helped

00:57:41.520 --> 00:57:47.360
him if you were on the sideline there and you had  a chance to say something to him? Great. I think

00:57:47.360 --> 00:57:55.440
then we're going back to the ocean waves like he  was in a tsunami. There is probably nothing. I

00:57:55.440 --> 00:58:03.360
mean one cannot know until one is in the moment.  Most likely I think the the best potential effect

00:58:03.360 --> 00:58:09.600
one could have had is if somebody would have  been around him that he knows well that actually

00:58:09.600 --> 00:58:18.160
is mindful that it bas because it emanates just  like how somebody if they get very very nervous

00:58:18.160 --> 00:58:22.800
right and they're an important person to you and  you're like you're so nervous you're freaking me

00:58:22.800 --> 00:58:30.320
out. It like affects you. It's the opposite way  also. If you have somebody around you where these

00:58:30.320 --> 00:58:37.040
three skills are noticeably elevated and you are  very very nervous and you're anxious and you have

00:58:37.040 --> 00:58:41.760
somebody around you who's just totally cool like  okay so you're nervous like I'm not trying to

00:58:41.760 --> 00:58:48.880
convince you to get rid of it. I think that is one  of the things that could have been very effective.

00:58:48.880 --> 00:58:54.960
Another thing that could have been very effective  is breathing protocols. You know, they definitely

00:58:54.960 --> 00:59:01.040
work. They're very effective, but they're also  limited. If you're experiencing such a heightened

00:59:01.040 --> 00:59:08.640
state of arousal and you are emotionally and  psychologically completely overwhelmed and you

00:59:08.640 --> 00:59:14.880
can't remove yourself from that situation. It's  just you got to suffer. You're going to go through

00:59:14.880 --> 00:59:21.440
it and then the best thing that can happen is if  you learn from it. And that is what he did, you

00:59:21.440 --> 00:59:26.320
know. So yeah, there would have been I would have  probably not said that much. I would have given

00:59:26.320 --> 00:59:33.760
him some simple tools breathing and I've been with  him and just being like it's okay. Not overanalyze

00:59:33.760 --> 00:59:40.320
and analytically explain to him how he doesn't  have to be identified with his mind and you know

00:59:40.320 --> 00:59:46.000
he can turn his attention somewhere else. That's  like in those moments it's not going to be it. I

00:59:46.000 --> 00:59:49.600
probably would have said something like remember  if you're frustrated this is a good thing. It's

00:59:49.600 --> 00:59:56.320
what you do with it. Uh yeah. Um, okay. And then  as you assess all the athletes you've worked with,

00:59:56.320 --> 01:00:01.680
you look at these top performers and you look  at these top performers with your mindfulness

01:00:01.680 --> 01:00:06.720
glasses on. Is there one trait, one of these  three pillars, one skill in particular that

01:00:06.720 --> 01:00:11.360
stands out where you say these people that tend  to be successful? Of course, there's a tactical

01:00:11.360 --> 01:00:17.760
aspect to it and tactical, but is there one aspect  that you see high performers, they share this one

01:00:17.760 --> 01:00:23.920
skill that they do particularly well? Yeah.  Yeah, I mean it's really from a mindful lens,

01:00:23.920 --> 01:00:30.160
right? Not not the physical aspect of it, the  strategical aspect. Generally, what they share is

01:00:30.160 --> 01:00:35.920
that they have a natural if they haven't developed  these skills like in a systematic way because

01:00:35.920 --> 01:00:42.400
they try trained them knowingly. Doesn't mean they  didn't train them. It was just more intuitive, but

01:00:42.400 --> 01:00:48.400
their intuitive approach still was effective. So  they these skills improve, right? And you can hear

01:00:48.400 --> 01:00:56.640
it over and over and over with the most successful  athletes they are very economous. It doesn't mean

01:00:56.640 --> 01:01:04.560
that when they lose it doesn't sting. Just take  now sinner. He lost the French Open. Like that is

01:01:04.560 --> 01:01:09.440
one of the most heartbreaking losses in tennis  history probably. And he acknowledged that. He

01:01:09.440 --> 01:01:14.960
doesn't pretend it's not hurting him but he's like  but it's okay. This is going to hurt for a while,

01:01:14.960 --> 01:01:23.360
right? This means like a few weeks at least and  but it's okay. That is equinimity in action. He

01:01:23.360 --> 01:01:31.360
is acknowledging it, accepting it and but now  turning his attention to what can I do next?

01:01:31.360 --> 01:01:38.720
While I am sad or while I am very frustrated  or upset about this loss of what happened,

01:01:38.720 --> 01:01:44.640
I allow it to be there. But I don't fight it.  I'm not trying to get rid of it early, right?

01:01:44.640 --> 01:01:51.920
or dwelling in it for weeks and weeks and months.  And when you listen back to Serena and when you

01:01:51.920 --> 01:01:58.720
listen to Ana Simova who lost the Wimbledon final,  right? six I don't even know what it was six love

01:01:58.720 --> 01:02:04.240
six love or 61 six love or something and then  how she kind of approached that loss and what

01:02:04.240 --> 01:02:16.480
she took away from it or Nadal or I mean so many  athletes you can hear and see and feel even though

01:02:16.480 --> 01:02:22.720
it's a little bit more challenging through like  just the screen but you can sense how yeah this

01:02:22.720 --> 01:02:33.120
stings but they're okay they are learning to allow  and accept failure, loss, emotional unpleasantness

01:02:33.120 --> 01:02:45.120
of sadness, frustration, anxiety, fear as part of  the process. It's part of it. And that elevates

01:02:45.120 --> 01:02:54.320
your ability to move in the right direction and  not get stuck tremendously. And you can see the

01:02:54.320 --> 01:02:59.760
flip side for athletes that are very good. They  have a lot of potential physically, strategically,

01:02:59.760 --> 01:03:06.720
let's say like curios, okay, was a good example.  He would get very very upset and he would react

01:03:06.720 --> 01:03:15.280
to being upset and often this was not in his best  interest. It didn't help his performance. Right?

01:03:15.280 --> 01:03:22.240
So that is definitely one of a few things from a  mindful perspective. what differentiates like the

01:03:22.240 --> 01:03:28.720
top from from the greats, you know, let's even say  nobody can say Kiras wasn't a great tennis player,

01:03:28.720 --> 01:03:34.480
but there's still a difference, right? And it's  not it's not the forehand for sure. Yeah, that's

01:03:34.480 --> 01:03:39.120
interesting. What I hear from you is like there's  this ability to dissociate the performance,

01:03:39.120 --> 01:03:48.000
the frustration and like acknowledge it and then  move on. Yes. Exactly. Exactly. And the moving on

01:03:48.000 --> 01:03:54.160
doesn't mean that it disappears. the frustration,  the moving on really refers to you allowing it

01:03:54.160 --> 01:03:59.680
and paying attention to something else that is  relevant right now that's helpful to you. Yeah.

01:03:59.680 --> 01:04:03.920
Moving forward, right? Even though you're carrying  that even though you're carrying it behind you,

01:04:03.920 --> 01:04:11.440
moving forward with it. Yeah. Super cool.  Um it's it's fun. I love hearing athletes,

01:04:11.440 --> 01:04:15.920
you know, talk about their performance afterwards.  I love the postgame talk, especially in individual

01:04:15.920 --> 01:04:20.800
sports because it's only them. they're responsible  for their performance. Scotty Shuffler has been a

01:04:20.800 --> 01:04:25.680
great example on the golf side of things. Talking  about, you know, not how he talks about failure,

01:04:25.680 --> 01:04:31.520
but how he talks about success. He's like, success  is a very fleeting feeling. Like he goes, "Yeah,

01:04:31.520 --> 01:04:35.360
you celebrate after 4 days and you're like, okay,  you're on to the next thing and it's gone." Like,

01:04:35.360 --> 01:04:38.720
he had a few moments to celebrate and then  you're like thinking about the next thing. Like,

01:04:38.720 --> 01:04:44.240
yes. Exactly. Right. Exactly. And he talked about  his struggles with enjoying success. I mean, this

01:04:44.240 --> 01:04:50.720
is the most successful golfer in a very long time.  and he's like, "Yeah, I don't even really know how

01:04:50.720 --> 01:04:54.480
to enjoy this experience because it's just on  to the next thing." So, it's been cool. But,

01:04:54.480 --> 01:04:59.680
he's done a great job being able to dissociate  like himself as a person from himself as a golfer,

01:04:59.680 --> 01:05:05.360
which has been kind of unique. But, um, okay.  Well, cool. So, Christian, for anyone who wants to

01:05:05.360 --> 01:05:10.080
learn more about mindfulness, for anyone who wants  to follow what you're doing, um, the work that

01:05:10.080 --> 01:05:16.960
you're involved in, where can they go to learn  more or to follow you? Yeah. Also, I have a online

01:05:16.960 --> 01:05:22.960
course that you can take for athletes that's  called Mindsize Sports. Mindsetports.com. That's

01:05:22.960 --> 01:05:30.000
definitely one option that you have. Otherwise, if  you're not so interested in mindfulness in sports

01:05:30.000 --> 01:05:34.800
and it's just mindfulness in general, right?  Then something I recommend is called unified

01:05:34.800 --> 01:05:40.560
mindfulness. These are all like online platforms  just for accessible for everyone at a very low

01:05:40.560 --> 01:05:47.040
cost. Yeah. And then of course, you know, there's  like a lot of people that in person you can go to,

01:05:47.040 --> 01:05:51.280
but I'm not going to recommend that since people  are like all over the place. So, I don't know all

01:05:51.280 --> 01:05:58.000
the places in the world. Um, well, cool. Yeah.  Make sure that we put those in the episode notes

01:05:58.000 --> 01:06:02.560
so that people can see that. And if someone  wants to reach out to you, maybe they have some

01:06:02.560 --> 01:06:10.880
questions or follow me. I mean, I'm not very on my  website. Okay. Yeah, straa.la. You can get a hold

01:06:10.880 --> 01:06:16.480
of me. Basically, I'm not like I have social media  accounts, but I'm not like really active. Maybe if

01:06:16.480 --> 01:06:21.600
you guys post something, I will repost, but that's  probably the first time in like 4 years or so. But

01:06:21.600 --> 01:06:26.720
yeah, over my website and there there is an email  link and so anybody can reach out to me. Yeah,

01:06:26.720 --> 01:06:31.200
you're going to be in bed doom scrolling. You're  going to say, I know looking at this Keiser post

01:06:31.200 --> 01:06:35.040
of me talking isn't the best thing for me right  now, but I'm going to do it. Christian, thank you

01:06:35.040 --> 01:06:38.720
so much for joining me today on the Keiser human  performance podcast. We really appreciate your

01:06:38.720 --> 01:06:41.760
time. It's always a pleasure catching up with you  to hear all the great things that you're doing,

01:06:41.760 --> 01:06:46.000
the impact you're making on, you know, people's  lives, not just in performance, but people

01:06:46.000 --> 01:06:49.840
outside of performance as well. So, thank you  so much for your time. We appreciate it and I

01:06:49.840 --> 01:06:54.960
can't wait to catch up with you soon. Awesome.  Likewise, Gabe. It was awesome talking to you.