Dr. Dehra Harris: Down-Regulation

In this episode of the Keiser Human Performance Podcast, Gabe and Todd are joined by Dr. Dara Harris, Assistant Director of Applied Performance Research with the Toronto Blue Jays. With a unique background as a former physician and educator, Dara shares her journey into professional sports and her work bridging biomechanics, learning theory, and athlete development.

The conversation centers around the concept of downregulation — the ability to reset the nervous system and recover from stress. Dara explains why many high performers struggle with burnout, emphasizing that peak performance isn’t just about pushing harder, but also about knowing how to recover effectively. Through practical examples and guided exercises, she highlights how individuals can identify personalized strategies to reset, improve focus, and sustain performance over time.

This episode offers a powerful shift in perspective, showing that mastering recovery is just as critical as training itself for long-term success in sport and life.

Welcome to the Keiser Human Performance Podcast. The goal of this podcast. is to educate and inspire you to make the most of your journey in health and performance.

Each episode will provide an in-depth discussion on a specific topic related to human performance. If you're a growth-minded individual seeking knowledge and better solutions, this podcast is for you. We're glad you're listening in, and we're excited to learn alongside you.

My name is Gabe Durham, and I'm alongside my co-host,

Todd Duken. On today's episode, we are joined by Dr. Dara Harris. Dr. Harris is a licensed physician and teacher by training who has found a true home in sports. In her current role as assistant director of applied performance. research with the Toronto Blue Jays, she happily gets to lead interdisciplinary collaboration between coaches and players to create comprehensive individualized training. Her work brings together biomechanics as well as applied research and learning theory, workload management, nutrition, strength training, and mental performance.

On today's episode, Dara discusses a unique concept in- human performance. she has been researching, downregulation. She provides insight on why high performers experience fatigue and burnout, and later in the episode provides some techniques she uses with her athletes to help build skills that aid in downregulation.

Dara is back on Instagram, and you' can follow her @dancermoren. That's dancer M-O-R-E-N. We' hope you' enjoy the episode, as much as we did. Dara, thank you for being here with us today. We're excited to ask some questions and learn from you. Thanks. I'm excited to be here. Yeah. Well, um, you know, I had the chance to hear you speak at Leaders in Sport event earlier this year. And first off, what an amazing facility the Blue Jays organization has built down there in Dunedin.

Thank you. Yep. And, uh, what a pleasure it was to meet you and your colleagues that really did an incredible job of hosting the event, so we're very appreciative for that. Thank you. Mm-hmm. It was a great experience. Um, and that was the first event we'd ever hosted, so we really, uh, were lucky to have everybody there.

Yeah, looking forward to a potential next one. And I remember leaving- Mm ... Florida and talking with Todd and saying to him, I was like, "Man, we gotta find a way to connect with Dara because she was dropping some knowledge." Like, "We gotta get her on." Ah, I love it. I'm very grateful for that. Yeah, yeah. So it's great, uh, that we're able to connect and do this. And before we get into the heart of our conversation today, I just wanna touch on your background for a minute because it is. a unique one. Yeah. You spent... Yeah. You spent time, uh, practicing, as a practicing physician and professor. Is that right? Yes.

Yeah. I refer to myself as being a recovering physician, but yes, I was, um, that was my traditional MD background. And when I started consulting in sports,

I was teaching at a medical school. So to go from that, uh, all the way to baseball is, is definitely not the traditional path 'cause I do not have a medical role, um, with the Blue Jays. I actually did completely retire, you know, put my license into inactive status and got to start solving baseball problems. So you're a recovering physician.

Yeah. Uh, so how did your path lead you into professional baseball? You know, and I use that term in a, in a playful way but also in an honest way. I think when I was a little kid and I was thinking of medicine, I probably was thinking of what I do now, even though I had no idea, right?

Because I thought that it would be all about health and helping people to live, you know, the best way possible, and I really honestly thought it was about performance when I was six, seven, eight years old, before I'd had any experiences with it. And so the kind of work that I was doing, um, was actually wellbeing programs for, uh, physicians in training and then teaching. And I actually-- the first time I came to sports,

I thought I was gonna take some of the teamwork elements from sports. back to medicine. That was my plan. And then I went to a Blue Jays, spring training.

Um, first I was on a panel at Leaders. Um, and I remember sitting in the audience after the panel and thinking,

"Oh, I really like sports people," you know? I felt really comfortable. I liked that the focus was on action and that we were trying to solve things and get better. And so when I went to the Blue Jays spring training. and I saw learning in that environment, where we could take an idea and then implement it that day' and then figure out, if it works to all of those elements,

I absolutely fell in love with it. And so when they had a totally different position, um, and reached out to me,

I was like, "Yep. I'm good. We're heading out." Definitely a different road. Yeah, for sure. And, um, I know in that role and since your time there, you've spent a lot of time researching adaptive learning and applying your knowledge to help athlete development and staff development as well, which is really important, uh, for you all there- Yes ... as well as performance.

Tell us now, though, where your curiosity has taken you, and what is piquing your researching interest these days? You know, it is true that the first things-- and I, and I still am, passionate about how do you individualize learning, because

I think a lot of us carry shame and insecurity about how we learned. If we weren't that' prototype model of the kid who could sit in a row and learn everything everyone else was learning with no help or intervention, then many of us, me included, just didn't think we were very smart. So if you're non-linear like me-A lot of us are drawn to sports, right? Drawn to other aspects of learning where we can put our hands on something, we can do something to see if it works.

So I think that was part of it. And then as I got more into sports, there were all these funny misconceptions that I had to hit, you know, head-on. 'Cause like I told them,

I mean, I had to learn baseball from scratch and, and I've joked with our pitching guys that there's a lot of the words that don't make sense, right? So you throw harder, but you don't drive your car harder, right? So then if it's trying to get somebody to throw 94, and it just all these little things that you're, you know, uh, you're at the top of an inning, but you're never in an inning at the top.

Ugh. All these little ways that you can just show that you don't know, um, a lot about baseball. And I started confronting all these different misconceptions about what made people elite, and one of the biggest ones that hit me is that everything we see is about people pushing themselves, and the people who love the game and stay in it are incredibly good at down-regulating, at actually figuring out what resets their nervous system.

So yes, they are elite at getting to that, you know, fine zone where they're just really performing, but the ones who never figure out anything but push are actually the ones that burn out or quit. And I just didn't think anybody was looking at that. And then when I looked at myself and what medicine had taught me, I couldn't think of anything that medicine had taught me about down-regulating either. And so that's where

I really started getting more curious. I like what you mentioned about, uh, peaking your interest from sport being non-linear and misconceptions that are made. We had Dr. Scott Goldman from, uh- Mm-hmm ... the Golden State

Warriors on with us, and he was discussing something similar about sport being this always evolving, uh, always in motion type of, uh, environment. So it's cool to hear you say that as well, and having that be an interesting, um, way to get into it, 'cause it was kind of the same for him. Yes. Um, so, so you mentioned this term down-regulation. So for anybody listening here, how do you define down-regulation?

And as a follow-up to that, like, definitely what is it, but then also what isn't it? I like it. So I'm definitely using the term in a little bit different way, and part of that is because I feel like a lot of the stuff we're talking about can have baggage, right? Stress can mean something, burnout means something else.

Um, I like the idea if, if you think honestly super nerdy of a chemical system gets up-regulated or it gets down-regulated. Um, and I think of it as a, a nervous system reset.

So one of the pieces that was challenging for me, like the non-linear thing you mentioned, is that I have never done well with the mainstream things like yoga or meditation. I don't find them relaxing.

And people have, oh, my gosh, have they tried to teach me hundreds of different ways. They've assured me that I'm doing it wrong, and if I did. it this other way, then I would get it. And so at one point I actually put a biosensor on myself and could look at my heart rate, my blood pressure, and my heart rate variability.

And I redline when people tell me to sit still, be quiet, and do nothing. I heard that my entire life growing up, right? 'Cause I have

ADHD. So all of life was not succeeding at sitting still in small rows and doing that. So y- telling me that as a grownup when I'm finally able to do what I want has an absolute reverse effect for me. So

I started recognizing I didn't know, what to do if I didn't wanna count when I breathe or I didn't wanna do still things, where was I supposed to go?

So after I did that biosensor, I could actually look at my own life, and I down-regulate when I talk to my friends. I down-regulate when I move.

And so then it started becoming this passion for talking to other people about how do we actually find it. So the first thing is down-regulating to me is resetting your nervous system to a trusting, calm state. It is not self-care. And that's another place where people get kind of, uh, you know, kinda worried. I think of self-care as tasks. It's something I do. I check it off, a list. And, it has an end point. You know, it's like, "Oh, I'll do five minutes of journaling," or I'll do whatever.

To me, down-regulating is you do it for however long it takes until you are reset, and it could be different. It could be, yeah, five minutes of a phone call, but it may take you

30 minutes of journaling, or maybe neither of those work for you, and what you need to do is go for a run. So to me, it's a thing that we' find by paying really, close attention to the actual impact things have on us and not what we're told is gonna work, and you have to find it on your own. So what I hear you saying is that this down-regulating, this nervous system reset, there's a lot of tools that people are offering, there's a lot of skills that you could build, but it's very much an individualized approach? Yes. And if those things work for you, yay.

Like, you're gonna find hours and hours of stuff online that you can do. If they don't, then... And actually we can do it now. I can talk you through how I explain it to athletes, and if you guys wanna do it with me, we can just go on a journey and try it, then your listeners can too.

Todd? Yeah. Yeah, let's do it. Do it. Okay. Let's go. All right, so we're gonna start off with puppies. Is that, is that okay?

Always okay. All right. So I need to know your favorite puppy, your favorite kind of dog. Ooh,

German Shepherd. Okay, German Shepherds. Gabe, do you wanna put one. in? Or are you gonna go- Yeah, for a pup- for a puppy- Yes

... uh, Berned- Bernedoodle. Oh, okay. So I want you guys to imagine- Nice. Good choice ... right, you've walked into a room, and there's a basket full of both of those kind of puppies. And I... You gotta... It's very specific. They're so small, they smell good, right? You know when they're that little just ball of beautiful puppy energy. You guys walk in, um, and I'm gonna have you walk me through exactly what you would do, and I want it to be detailed, right? So you guys walk into this room, and one of the puppies has fallen out and is really distressed.

So what do you guys do? Starting first with Todd. The way I'm envisioning this, there's, there's actually eight puppies in the basket. I like, it. Got the little handles on it. Yes. And the puppy's on the right side, and it's, like, but little German Shepherd have those little sharp teeth. Yeah. And they're always kinda yipping. Mm-hmm. And so I would, I would pick up the puppy with my left hand, right hand's on top, and would be, like, gently t- talking to the dog, and then would move it back into the basket. Ooh, I love it. And I would try to put it in the middle so it's surrounded by its friends.

I like, it. What about for you, Gabe? What are you doing? See, my puppy's on. the- The Bernedoodle also fell out. My, my Bernedoodle fell out on the left side. I like that. It's 'cause you're, 'cause you're left, you're left-handed.

Ooh. Yeah, front left. Perfect. And, and, um, so I walked over to it. And, oh, first of all, I looked around the room, seeinG else, who else was there.

Um- Nice ... 'cause I was like, "How did I get so lucky that. I'm the only one in here with a basket full of Bernedoodles?" Perfect. So I grabbed the Bernedoodle, and I held it' first, actually. So Todd put his. back in.

I just held it first, and I definitely talked to it, like, in a weird little puppy voice for sure, being like, "Are you okay?" This is perfect. So here's what I tell athletes that I work with and staff that I work with. Your nervous system is no different from a puppy. Whatever you think is so fancy about that frontal lobe part of your brain that has all these sophisticated things, your nervous system is way closer to a distressed puppy than it is to any of the stuff that you think it is, right?

So if your instinct in this situation, it's so clear, right? You didn't hesitate. You embellished, but you didn't hesitate. You immediately went in to assess, to soothe.

You know, you even thought about putting it in the middle so it's around friends. So what I would like you to contrast this with is what's your internal, internal dog trainer like, your internal coach? So when you mess up, you don't perform the way that you wanna perform, what is that voice like? Gabe, do you wanna go first? I'm so worried about my answer here. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Um, I'm a very practical, I think, or very objective, so, um, I would probably first consider, like, my effort level, right? Was my effort level up to the demand of the task? Like, was it a lack of effort? I'd probably start, start there. Mm, so you're gonna tell a puppy,

"Exactly what did you do to get out of this basket? Did you have the right amount of effort for staying in the basket?" I mean, maybe.

Maybe. I'd probably wonder. Like, why? You might, right? But your response in the moment. Todd, what about you? Yes. So if that's me, and I'm out of the basket or. if I, I didn't perform well, I think I would probably have moment of internal, like, sadness. Mm. Like, I'd be thinking, like, I, I would be kind of in a bad place the way I'd be feeling.

And I think I would also be trying to think about, I would think about, like, how my teammates feel, especially if we didn't perform as a group. Mm. And so when, when I was, when I was, an at- athlete or student athlete, I, I felt in those moments I would try to reach out to other people on the team-

Yes ... and have conversations right away, especially when you initially lose. And I, I did that when I transferred into coaching, too. I like that. So you kinda let people be in their feelings, but then- Yeah ... let's talk, let's talk about it now instead of taking this back to the hotel or taking it back to the school. And see, here's what I love about both of these elements. I think it's interesting.

Some people have really internalized that harsh critic. I mean, sometimes you feel like you're hearing their little league coach, right? Sometimes you can hear something that even doesn't even sound like their own voice.

And what I like to remind them of is, in that moment, the only thing that matters is the reset. All of your analysis, all the things that you're gonna learn from it don't happen in a stressed state. Just like you inherently don't teach the puppy how to be better at basket in that moment, right? What you do is you get them back, and then you think about whatever else is happening, and that's the main thing I'm saying about learning how to down-regulate, is just be able to get yourself back to neutral and then make time for each of these pieces. I actually think co-regulation is a, a really big part of it, so I'll t- I'll talk about that in a second, too. It's so interesting to me how many people have internalized the idea that they have to push themselves constantly.

And what we know, right, is when you're in a fear or trauma state, you're not even accessing that part of your brain. You're much less likely to learn. You're not even able to take in all the information.

So all I'm arguing for is... Actually, even though I do tell players if they were on the mound and talked to themself like they were a puppy, it probably would workYou don't have to. But if your goal is to get the reset in whatever way you need to, sometimes it's a physical reset, sometimes it's, it is breathwork, whatever it is, your goal is to reset for that next moment, and then you'll make time for all the other pieces. And when you talk about co-regulating, when I- I've joked with, um, our trainers, and we have incredible access to really amazing, um, technology, and what I like to, you know, playfully remind them is the thing that we are wired for, that we've been doing since we've been sitting around fires, it's co-regulation, right?

So maybe we are fibroblastologists. Maybe, right? Like, maybe we are making all of these impacts. But in the moment, more like what Todd's saying, the thing that our nervous systems have been doing for generations is we get in sync with each other. Right? You bring that puppy in so that you can regulate, and then they can regulate with you. Same thing you're talking about doing with your teammates or your significant other.

So I think we, we know, these pieces, but we've been given all of these other things that get in the way. Oh, you' gotta, you know, dissect it right away. You gotta, like, get on yourself, all? those things.

No. Reset, then make time for all those other processes. Puppies.

I'm just thinking about a lot of different types of puppies now. Um- Right? Okay, yeah. No, nice, nice dog. And b- and what do you feel when you're thinking about the puppies? I feel good. I want them to be happy.

Right? So even puppy thoughts are something that y- that... It works, right? It's a very carefully chosen thing.

And honestly, men get so few places where they're allowed to be overtly nurturing without getting kind of strange double messages, that puppies is a very intentional, and intentional choice. And I think that's an interesting piece, you know, that a lot of athletes are dealing with, too.

It took me three days to get some people, um, in a different country's Olympic system to say the word nurture. They're like,

"No, no, self-care." I was like, "No. Nurture." You know? And then they would go back to self-care. I was like, "It's still not self-care. It's, you know, actually resetting."

So I, I have a follow-up on this. So especially in your organization when you get to work with- Mm-hmm ... players and staff, so when you're, when you're educating the staff- Mm-hmm ... and say your team is going through a hard time or you know, a player has gone through a hard moment, do you feel the staff is equipped to be av- available and make themselves more present in those moments to be able to then help regulate with that athlete? Or do you try to rely more athlete to athlete for co-regulation?

I think it really depends. I think that's one of the things I'm really proud of about the Blue Jays and a lot of the things that we're doing that focus on wellbeing and being intentional.

Because I do think, honestly, all work, um, sports included, can get you to a point where your tank is so low you don't have anything to give.

So I know that it's definitely a part of what we're all talking about, is how to get centered, and I think that's a beautiful part of those relationships naturally. I think the strength and conditioning coach who's working side by side when an athlete's working on his, you know, personal best, I think you're co-regulating.

I think you're proud of them. I think you're giving them just those right cues so that they can achieve it. I think that's absolutely co-regulation, too.

Um, and then I think it is something that athletes, I hope, start doing for each other, too. I think some do already with friendships. And I think the more language we give athletes that it's okay to do both accountability and nurturing,

I think that's a really transformative kind of environment. Yeah. For me, w- where I'd go with this, and tell me if I'm, I'm point with kinda co-regulation is, especially as a performance coach, when our team would go through a really hard loss, I found that myself and maybe the athletic trainer and the dietician wouldn't take the loss as hard as a coach.

Mm-hmm. And so a lot of time the coaches w- they were still having a hard time processing the loss. Mm-hmm. So when we would get back to the hotel, I made a point to go sit at the table with the- Yes ... players that were the most upset. Yes. Because I was calm and, you know, the loss is a loss. For me it was over.

But for them- Mm-hmm ... they may still be holding onto it. And I would just- Mm-hmm ... sit at the table. Yes. And we would, and we would eat. I wouldn't really say much. Maybe somebody'd bring something up about the game, and I'd just- Mm-hmm ... I would try to find a way to help them be calm. Yes. And I think having that presence at a team meal was helpful, but I could see how that would be hard with a, a sport coach to be doing that when-

Yeah ... you know, that it's kind of a divide there. But that, that's- And I- ... where my head went when you were talking about this. I love that. I, I think it, it's so interesting, too, what do we reinforce each other for, what do we support each other for? In baseball there's this beautiful element of being the same guy every day, which I think speaks to a really kind of nice equanimity and, okay, here, we're doing it. I also think it, you know, whether intentionally or not, speaks to co-regulation.

And I think that I have coaches who are just next level at it. And, and I have all kinds of people who are just learning that it's okay. You know? Sometimes people think they have to be one way versus... or think they have to do something special. What's interesting about what you're saying,

Todd, is you're... honestly you're just putting your nervous system in their orbit, and that's what we're wired for. And similar to, you know, again, back to puppies, if you're just there, and you're centered, and you're watching their cues, right?And then you're showing up in those little small ways that help everybody, you know, co-regulate. Yeah, so there's some- Gabe's wheels are turning. Yeah, no, it's, it's great. This is nice. So I'm thinking... I, I, I'm just thinking about performance now. Yeah. That's kind of where my head has been going. I'm thinking about performance, and- Yes ... especially sport. Let's just take baseball. Mm-hmm. And you're going from performance to performance, right? You finish the game, you have the game the next day. Um, but there's this time and this need for, like, assessment and analysis and preparation. So- Mm-hmm

... how much of that is too much? And if there is, like, a too much of that, and I'm... From what I hear, is that it's depends on the individual- Mm-hmm ... of how much they can handle.

Um, how do we separate, like, what is analysis and what's really important for the next performance, and what is, like, this anxiety or stress and-or- I love that ... an inability to down-regulate?

I love that because it's so interesting, isn't it, that we do value reflection. And I, and I definitely believe in that adage that learning only happens with reflection, right? So there's only so much you can get out of an experience.

The real learning is when you think about it afterwards. The piece that I would say is, and this was really true in, in medicine, so when I was mentoring, you know, medical students. I remember being so blown away that they were describing a drive to succeed, but they were using all anxious words. So it was this moment of,

"Oh, wait, like, do you know the difference between drive and anxiety?" And a, a lot of them didn't. A lot of them thought worrying incessantly about failing was the same thing as wanting to succeed.

And it was this conversation with them about drive is directional, it's goal-related, and it usually has steps and things that you can do. Anxiety is looping, unable to be reassured, and repetitive.

And when you are in those states, the most important thing, and honestly probably your loved ones can tell you if you're not totally tuned into it, is that your drive or your analysis ends up making you more calm. It is down-regulating because you're giving yourself a chance to notice patterns. You're usually much slower.

You're reflecting. It's usually not super emotionally charged. Whereas anxiety is that loop, right, where you're saying the same bad thing to yourself you said since you were 10, and it's always the same. And even if you try to talk back to it, it just keeps coming back. So I think for me, if we're, if we're talking about which one is happening,

I ask them first just to listen to themselves and then pay attention to how you feel after that thought. If you feel more stressed, more worried, more focused on things you can't control, then probably not the reflection and things that you need.

And sometimes people wanna replace thoughts. You know, like, oh, put a more positive thought in. That's never been super effective for me.

Honestly, I can just start chasing thoughts. For me, I then start to say, "What do I need to do for my nervous system to reset?" So now, I'm gonna be more like the puppy thing. Do I need to move?

Do I need to do some of the stuff that I just enjoy for me? So if you start to feel that looping-type thing in your chest, my suggestion is actually stop what you're doing, get back in your body, and go do something rather than trying to, like, chase and replace thoughts.

So to put this back in, like, a practical experience- Mm-hmm ... uh, Todd and I are your athletes that, that- Yes ... you're working with, and we're new to this idea. We've just been really good at our sports for a long time, and- Right? ... now, we get to this level where we're not having the same success we've experienced previously.

Uh, we come to you and say, "We don't know how to down-regulate. It's this idea we've heard of," and we're like, "We have no clue." Maybe we do, we're just not conscious of it. Like, how do you get us, as a practitioner, to help us understand the steps that we can take to, to down-regulate? So I usually start with a question, and we'll let you guys answer it too, give you a second to answer it.

What is something that you do that is just for you and doesn't benefit anyone else? It can't be good for anybody else. I like spending time... I mean, for me, just going on a walk, like, by myself or spending time finding a place that I really enjoy that's outside. And I think Todd's a little bit similar. I don't wanna speak for him, but I know he, he and I kinda talked about this before, just being able to spend time, uh, in nature. And kind of for us typically is during that morning time when we can just have our- Mm-hmm ... our own, uh, our own time to ourselves. And going for a walk, being in the sun, I, I know that's good for me.

Mm-hmm. And I know that's good for, uh, my mind, and also, uh, it's good for me physically. So for me, I, I would say that, like, going to spend time in nature or going for a walk and being by myself is really nice. I love it. Tell me about the last walk you went on. When was that?

Yesterday morning. Um, so I- Okay. What's the f- Yeah. Yeah. No, it's good. What was the first thing you remember visually as you stepped out the door and went for the walk?

So I have a jalapeno plant on the bottom left. Oh, nice. And, uh, I have that with some flowers.On the bottom left and then, uh, on my walk out there's the sa- obviously the same tree every single time. So, kinda look at the tree and I'm, I'm in the Chicago area and- Yeah ... it's fall, so they're changing right now. So just kinda noticing some of the colors in the trees and I typically look up at the same tree every single time. Uh- Yeah ... and the same thing.

I, I look for the leaf flutter. So I, I, I've listened to people talk before- Yeah ... so kind of like always, you know, got a little bit enthralled with the leaf flutter and, uh- Yeah ... I kinda look at that same tree each time. And so if you think about it, as you're telling me this story, what do you notice about your body? Uh, that is kind of the same time that I start to check in, like the first few steps that I'm outside. Uh, it's kinda like, all right, what kind of day is it gonna be?

Like- Yeah ... in terms of how, in terms of how my body's feeling, but I think pretty quickly- Even, right now in this moment, when you're just talking to me right now, and you're thinking about leaf flutter. Yeah, I feel light. Like, I feel good. I, uh, I'd say that's probably one of the things that, that I feel when I, when I think about the leaf flutter is just feeling very at ease and, and light on my feet. Yeah. And Todd, do you notice anything about how his speech changes or eye contact?

What do you notice about him? Yeah. He, he definitely sounded happier. You could tell, like he start- he started, he, he was excited to tell you what he likes doing. Yeah. And his tone of voice is more varied, and he's slower, right? You can feel that he's thinking about it, all of those pieces. So what I would say to you is part of finding down-regulation is knowing that even when you're talking about it, you're giving me part of it. And if you start figuring out, like the next time you go on a walk, pay attention to as much as you can about what you're feeling at a body level and what your process is. I would say what you've told me so far is it's open-ended, and it begins with noticing and a familiar pattern. So you notice the same three things, but the walk itself is open-ended. And it's likely that your process for finding down-regulation has those elements probably every time. So if you sit here while we talk through Todd, if you sit here and think about where's another place that you feel light, open-ended, comfortable exploration, any of those kinds of things, then we can probably find at least one more that works. And then Todd will try it with you to see if that pattern, that pattern holds. What's your one? Unless Gabe has something to say, if you have a question. I did,

I just, well, I just have one follow-up on that. Yeah. So at first you had mentioned what's something that you do for you. Um, but one of the things that come to mind in that environment, same, like same parameters, like open-ended, like feel good, feel light, um, for me as writing down was like when I'm with my family and my friends. Yeah. Like that's a huge time for me, uh, especially if I'm feeling like stressed out or kind of a higher, uh, feeling a little bit anxious. Like spending time with my family and friends, uh- Yeah ... is definitely something I enjoy. Like sitting on the couch with them is like kind of where I feel the best. Yeah. Um, and then I- And what happens when you're on the couch? Like what's going on in those moments? Like last good moment on the couch, what was it like? Oh, that's easy. We were celebrating my nephew's first birthday on Sunday. Uh- Oh, so fun. Yeah. We had our whole family there, so that was a really enjoyable experience, and just kinda looking around, like noticing people and, and just laughing and definitely a lot of laughing. Yeah.

Um, and just- And- ... like, feel- feeling good. Yeah. And so what I think is fun is even without meaning to, you started finding crossways, right? And the reason I start with it being something that's not good for other people is that we are so conditioned, and even women to a, a higher degree, to bring in acts of service when first asked questions about what do we like, what do we do?

And I think that's a beautiful part, and I actually think that's co-regulation and really good. But sometimes when we're taking care of other people, it's actually very hard to notice our own internal state. So when I ask them what's just for them,

I'm more likely to get a solo moment like the one that I just did, where it's like, okay, you have a memory set of what that was, and then we can anchor it back to your felt experience.

'Cause that's what I need you to go back to. If you only go to situations, we're gonna get a really short list, right? We're gonna get the things you already know. If we do it with sensation, you're gonna do exactly what you just did. You're like, "Ooh, ooh, I have this other way I feel that way. Over here."

Right? And so that's why I like to start with the thing that's just for you. What's in your body, and then you'll start naturally going, "Oh, and when I, um, tend to that jalapeno plant," which we can talk about plants too, because I have now, um, dramatically increased the amount of plants in my life in ways that I did not anticipate. So I wanna hear about the jalapeno plant. But Todd too- Well- ... like do you have a, uh...? Yeah. So actually my mind went from the first place to the next place, and I think I ended actually probably where

I should have started. I love it. But 'cause I- That's the best kind. I- initially with Gabe, we were talking about being outside, and for me, like I have, I have a, a nice property with some live oaks. I'm in Central Texas, and I, I can't see any other houses or any other people. So sitting outside and just having a coffee by myself in the morning with the sun coming up, it usually, usually I can, I'm in a very nice place at that time. And then my mind went to also, uh,

I'm fortunate enough to have a sauna. Yeah. And so when my family's, when my wife and kids are asleep, like I can go sit in the sauna. I, I typically actually have no music on. I sit in silence.

Mm-hmm. 'Cause all day from working from home, there's just a lot of noise and interaction, and I'm always on the phone or messaging, and that's a time just to be completely silent, which is nice And wait, let's, let's stay there really quick though. Okay. 'Cause just think about it, we just got a common thread already, right?

Your moment in the sunrise is no one's around you. Yeah. The sauna moment is a lack of stimulation.

So there's an element of your recharge and reset that is solitude, which is actually similar for me. Although I love humans- Yeah, same ... I actually have a very high need to get to low to no stimulus. Yeah. And so that's just a fun thread. So let's see if it holds, because now- And- ... you're gonna say the third, and let's see. And it does. Ha. And so the third one for me is playing basketball by myself. Yeah. Not with anybody else. I can... There's a, a gym up the road less than a mile away. I, I can go during the day if I don't have any meetings, and- Mm-hmm ... I just shoot by myself. And time stops, I'm not on my phone. And I always go back to being a kid. Um, we had a nice half court that was poured on... I grew up on a cattle farm in Iowa, so we had a- Nice ... nice little half court outside that was cement, and I would always imaginate, like I would always be imagining playing against other people, and I would always have scenarios in my head, but it was always just creative and it was by myself. Yes. And I find myself now in my mid-30s, I can still go be in that place when

I go play basketball alone. And it's so... And think about what... And it's tapping you into creativity and storytelling, and it's allowing you to, to be there in a way where... And I find this with a lot of people with high emotional intelligence, part of what's both wonderful and exhausting about other humans is we're always reading them. So if part of what you and I probably need, the solitude means that I'm just taking in less information about how everyone else is doing, and it's allowing me to go back to that more quiet voice inside of me and play, um, you know, some really interesting research on this, um, it was just out of the Huberman Lab, talking about it allows us to try on new roles, which is what I think part of we're talking about, is if you're running a scenario in your mind and you're playing with a different way of being, and all of that's, you know, a really beautiful recharge. So if we had come to both of these, what's fun, right, is the things you naturally highlighted to me are different, but essential to both of you, and they cross each of the different things, right?

So, you know, when even talking about the setup, um, Gabe, for yours being, you know, the people are around you, there's even an element of ritual to it. It's a birthday, right? It's a coming together. It has some pieces of that that are, you know, expected, and then it's like, but everything can happen, spontaneity, laughter, whatever happens on the walk. There's a nice mix of those two things for you. And then for Todd, it's starting with a little bit of peace, a little bit of openness, um, some solitude so that you're having a different kind of experience. And when you think about what you feel in your body, Todd, when you're there, what is that? Is it deeper breathing? Is it less weight on your shoulders? What do you feel at a body level? Yeah, it's definitely, it goes back to I think initially what you, what you mentioned at the beginning- Yeah ... is like I don't have to think about how anybody else is feeling or, like, read anybody else and try to be in, like, kinda in their world a little bit. Mm-hmm. And so it's definitely very light, relaxed, weight off my shoulders, and it's a feeling of being free.

Yeah. I g- I, I, I'm picturing myself, like I, I can feel myself now at the gym, and that's exactly how I feel. And so to me, I would ask you guys if we were working together on this,

I just want you to spend a few seconds with that, that sensation, so that that's the thing that you're going to gently find in lots of different pieces, and that's what we're trying to do. So if you get stressed and upregulated, you at least now have a concept of what the opposite state is, and a couple of the features that are probably essential for you to have it.

And then you just start building daily practices. So, like I have a reminder that goes off on my phone every day that says,

"What solitude and respite will you create for yourself today?" Just a prompt helps me to think about it. And then as I read that, and before I'm gonna dismiss it you know, I actually do try to make myself make a plan for, you know, all right, I'm gonna cut off communications a little bit earlier tonight. I do recognize that I'm pretty taxed, so, you know, I'm gonna read or, you know, do something else. So that's the way that I start working with athletes. First I explain the nervous system regulation piece, you are not fancier than a puppy. Um, and then challenge them a little bit about the messages they give themselves about whether or not it's acceptable and what happens. And then if I was working with staff or anyone else,

I'm saying, "Okay, tell me the last thing that you did that's just for you," and then we just start finding those little bits of common features, and then the homework, so to speak, is find other ones.

Um, and you know, you can play with it. You can play with what gets you upregulated. You can build lists of either one. But I find a lot of people are pretty aware of what gets them stressed. And then once you can get back to your body, you can find other ones that'll get you downregulated.

I like two things about the activity that we just did, one of them being, like, getting us into a memory of comfort and, like, a- Mm-hmm ... just a good feeling, uh, from the start. And then number two, getting us to talk-... the whole time, right? Like, uh, you can go into somebody, and I imagine if, if I- we come to you and, and we're trying to work on something, we expect you to have answers. But it's almost like you let guided us to, to get us to find the answer.

Exactly, 'cause I don't think we do. I don't think I do have the answer. I think the best part of this work, and the stuff that, like, keeps me coming back to it over and over again, is, like, it's so specific to you. Even you guys being friends and things you have in common, and I just felt for so long that there was no room for that. And, you know, it was like if I didn't fit that one way of meditating or counting breathing or any of those things, and again, if those work for you, yay. They don't work for me. So then I was always in these situations where I felt like starting of, of breathwork was me thinking, "Well, this isn't gonna go well," you know? Which is not super conducive to relaxing.

So having these experiences and going, "Oh, okay, let me find what down regulates it." And the another thing you guys said, you didn't tell me you did it for five minutes as a checklist, right? Like, this was not a self-care task that you gave yourself.

This is a reset, which I think is a really interesting piece. And again, I didn't ask that it specifically be one thing or the other.

So you're finding that these individuals that are becoming, like, chronically fatigued or burning out just have a lot of trouble down-regulating?

Like- Mm-hmm. And they think that they have to always be on in order to perform, and that they think that the stressed state is the performance state or is... You know, it's necessary to be anxious.

And I think the focus that you can get from fear can be confusing, 'cause it can sort of feel like performing. But once you're all the way in a fear and a looping state, then, I mean, just the accessory muscle tension alone isn't great for performance, much less any of the other cognitive stuff, right? So you, you have some experience, then, a- a- as a professor in childhood psychology. Is that right?

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay. So how far back does that go? Like, when you, when you start talking to somebody new- Mm-hmm ... and you start getting to know them, like, how far back do you try to get to in terms of their childhood and their, and how they're raised to find out, like, is this a learned behavior? Is there a reason why they can't down-regulate? Like, is there a reason there's a lot of fear and anxiety? Like, or you know the flip side, like, "Oh, this person's gonna be just fine."

You know, it's interesting. I only go there if they feel blocked. So if they feel like they can't tell me anything that isn't stressful, then I might go back to, okay, when you were a little kid. And a part of what I'll do there is actually ask them about their childhood dreams. So what did they love before somebody told them it wasn't impossible? What did they enjoy doing? What did they dress up for Halloween, you know?

Um, and if I need to, I'll get them back to some of those earlier states. But I tend to be really focused on kind of where they are now and what will work for them now, unless they think they're blocked, in which case we can kind of, you know, go back. And, and sometimes we need to do that, too, when they really are struggling with an internal or harsh critic and they can't, you know, get away from that voice. Like, they think that kind of internal coach voice is right.

Then I might go back to childhood and say, "So who sounds the most like your internal critic? What are some catchphrases or things you recognize?"

But most of the time I just ask them for the last thing that, like I did with you guys. So as, as you talk to, like, some of your colleagues and other practitioners and friends in this field, do you find there's, like, being more value placed into helping performers with down-regulating? You said this is an area of research that you've been, you know, recently, uh, kind of consumed in and wanting to understand more.

And are there resources within organizations that are being allocated to helping these individuals, like, avoid fatigue? And my mind goes, uh, Todd and I actually went to Leaders as well in- Mm-hmm ... New York, and we had the chance to hear, uh, Dr. David Petrino speak a little bit- Mm-hmm ... uh, out of Mount

Sinai. And he had- Yeah ... some great things about these biophilic experiences and, um, you know, some of the projects that Mount Sinai was doing, in the hospital- Mm-hmm ... creating a kind of a fake nature environment, a room that, uh, practitioners and nurses and doctors can go spend 15 to 20 minutes in and significantly reduce their stress. Like, are there areas within your building, in the complex- Mm-hmm ... that you have for, that? And then also, like, around the league, is that something that's you're seeing take flight? I think there is more interest in it, and I love the work that you're describing. We do, um, now have, like, a dedicated, um, space for... Actually, we have a couple now, um, for just being quiet, um, for being able to get away from things, quiet your mind, and that's been an intentional part of our mental performance department, something that I'm really proud of.

And we also have a movement studio that's a place where you can move and be, um, in that, um, way, too, and spaces around our complex where you can walk. Um, and I definitely do lots of walk-in meetings my staff will tell you. Especially if it's conflicted, I'm like, "We have to walk," because you're less likely to get stuck in your thoughts.

I think as a whole, one of the people I really value, um, wrote the book Radical Compassion, so Tara Brach. Amazing. And she has this acronym RAIN, so recognize, allow, investigate, and nurture. So that's part of why I've been talking so much about nurture. And investigate is investigating what happens in your body, right? So even you guys noticed when we started talking about what was happening, I didn't want you to stay totally intellectual. I wanted you to tell me-What you felt in your body. And I think that what she's really put together there is a beautiful process. So allowing is just simply saying, "Can you be with whatever you're feeling?" So I think that there are definitely people who are working more in this space who are thinking about how we get to reset. I think there's just a lot of tradition around the other elements of what we think makes people elite, and this is harder to measure sometimes.

So I think HRV in some of the work we're doing, it was interesting actually- recently when we were doing the, um, hurricane support work that we needed to do. We had some players that we couldn't evacuate.

They couldn't go back to their country. We tried to get everyone out, but weren't able to do that. And then we had some families too, especially of our Major League staff, where, you know, the dad is off in New York and can't help figure out some of those plans.

So we ended up having people at our player development complex. And what's so interesting is if you look at my HRV, um, my heart rate variability, right, if higher numbers are better, I always tell people it's like a symphony.

If it's light and bubbly instead of, like, pounding, you know, electronica, you're in a better place, right? So if you look at mine, it's actually got low, not surprisingly, while we're trying to figure out what we're gonna do, um, how we're gonna do the evacuation, how we're gonna do all that. But once everybody was together in the PDC, and my daughter was there too, it's actually high again. I'm taking care of people. I, you know, deeply care about the people that are in the room. We had dogs, we had kids, we had we had everyone.

Um, and we were all navigating it together. Then after everybody gets home safe, and I knew it would happen, I told my team, I'm like, "I'm gonna tank."

I will have put so much effort into all of these things, and I do love them. Hmm, I'm gonna go low, and so I need to take the weekend off. And you can look at my heart rate variability, and it absolutely takes three to four days, you know, and for me to come back. But knowing yourself that way and knowing, all right, the lows and the highs are normal, but what does it take for me personally to be sustainable?

And where, where do you see this kind of research going? Uh, where do you hope to see it go? Where do you hope to see, uh, the application of these concepts go in the future? Uh, whether it's, you know, business, environment- Mm-hmm ... athletics, wherever, um, where do you hope to see it go and, and pick up in?

I think I have two, two elements of that. So I have the first is, like, a really practical kind of impact one, right? And then the other one will be more personal. So on a practical level, I think a lot of these biosensors are giving us access to information where we could truly personalize recovery and resets. And my hope would be that we actually start looking at what metrics do that well, and how they're tied to performance.

I'm perfectly happy to be wrong. Like, if it turns out that downregulating is actually a disaster for, for performance, then I would love to know that, right?

But if we're not even measuring it, and it's harder to know, you know, there's so many beautiful things you could check in baseball, right? And stuff that we're looking into too about individual or team performance. If we're looking at the biometrics behind it, and we look at their ability to downregulate, can we separate their performance? Can we see if it makes them more durable? A lot of those questions.

So I hope that we start actually looking into recovery and its impact on performance in a more systematic way. So that would be my practical, you know, side. The piece for me on the personal level, and, you know, I know you guys heard this at, at Leaders too, is that I always think it's important to tell people how I got here because it, it isn't an.

intellectual thing. I didn't sit on a mountain and suddenly I thought, "Oh, I'm gonna help everyone downregulate," right? Like, what

I tell people, is, you know, life kicked my ass, um, and it took me to a point where there was really no other option.

Um, and you know, same with my, my daughter. When my son was diagnosed with cancer, I mean, it took our family entirely offline, and we lived in a hospital every other week. You know, we would spend seven days or three days, you know, and it's this just constant stressed state.

And one of the things that you start realizing is, like, there's no way to keep doing it, right? Like, you have to keep doing it, but there's no way to keep doing it if you don't start learning some things. And what was interesting is actually it was my son who started figuring it out. And what he noticed about me is that I'm happy in sports. He said,

"When I-- Before I go, when I, um, am there, and when I come back." And so when I'm thinking about making this huge career change, and it sounds so huge, and how could I possibly stop being a doctor, you know, it was really my son and then my daughter noticing that I downregulate in sports. I'm happy.

And as that journey went on, before we lost him, he sat and made us these detailed instructions for how to find joy.

And guess what? None of them are about pushing ourselves, right? None of them are like, "Work harder," "Hate yourself more," you know, right?

Like, the things that he wanted for us are, um, watching Deadpool movies, um, hamburgers, root beer, laughter, you know, all of those pieces. And-When we lost him, we didn't start that stuff right away. Like, I know? that, I mean, we certainly didn't.

But it has been the only recipe for recovery that I think has gotten, you know, both of us, um, my daughter and I back.

And so on my personal kind of journey in wanting it is, like, life can just be so unpredictable, and it's already gonna push you, so I just see no reason to beat yourself up.

And if we're not teaching people to hold moments like that birthday party or the m- moment of solitude, you know, when you're just on that back thing, then you're missing the parts of your life that are magic and worth doing.

And so I, I would just say, yeah, like, I want you guys to down-regulate so you don't miss the good stuff.

Well, uh, I know I speak for Todd, uh, when I say, uh, it's an incredibly personal story that you shared, and we're, we're very appreciative that you would make yourself vulnerable in that way- Thank you ... and, uh, to, to share that information with us and, and do it in that way, and, uh, we really appreciate that.

And- Thank you ... yeah, I mean, we're incredibly grateful for your time today, and I know we really, really enjoyed this experience. I mean, this is like-

Me too ... this is so awesome. Uh, you know, I got puppies, jalapeno plant, my family. Right? I went to the ocean for a little bit. Right? You did.

You did. Um, and I guess the lessons that you're able. to share with us and some of the knowledge you're able to share and, and we're just super, super grateful, uh, to have you on here and talk with you here today.

Thank you. And I appreciate that you guys provide this incredibly open, inquisitive, um, not nefarious, just throwing that in for

Todd's wife, um- Yes ... experience. Thank you. Yes, yes. Um, shout out to significant others. Um, and really just all the ways that we're supported, so thanks for creating this fun environment, where people get to show up fully and talk about stuff they care about. I'm, I'm grateful.

Yeah. Thank you so much. This is amazing. And we love your, um, painting behind you as well. Thank you. So hopefully when people get to watch this- I know ... like, they can check out, 'cause that's pretty incredible.

I appreciate that. Yes, and, uh, I am starting in slow doses, I had stopped all of the social media things, um, after I... I'd done a blog with my son, and we created a book, um, related to those experiences, and then

I, I shut it all down for about three years. But now I'm definitely feeling ready to talk more about down-regulation and those things, so I just started Instagram back again.

And I... It was funny 'cause everybody was talking to me about... I didn't use my own name, and then it was like, oh, you know. I get all kinds of, as you can imagine, advice on, that. But I actually picked dancer, and then it's morren. We'll put it in here.

But, um- Yeah, ... because dancing is my way of down-regulating. It's my favorite way, actually. So I decided I was just gonna buck some of the traditions, 'cause I am a little bit rebellious, um, and, put it as that. So it'll be fun. Hopefully it starts a good dialogue on how to down-regulate.

Cool. Make sure we share that, uh, in, in the episode notes and make sure we have that, uh, in there. And can you just spell that last part for us? So it's dancing- dancing- It's dancer ... dancer. Okay. Thank you. So D-A-N-C-E-R and then M-O-R-R-E-N.

Okay. Great. Well, we'll make sure that we share that so people- Thanks ... can, uh, stay up on anything related to down-regulation. Yeah. I know next time someone says, "Oh, he's soft," or I'm g- No. Right? He's just not down-regulating.

Right? It's so true. Now you're gonna have a whole other kind of language. It's gonna be so much fun. Or, yeah, or, you know- That's amazing ... maybe like a Friday afternoon, I'll be, "Todd, listen, I... It's been a long week.

I really need to down-regulate, man. It's... Check in." Exactly that. You're like, "I'm gonna go get a basket of puppies." You know? You know I got your back on that, G. You can do whatever you need to.

I love it. Yeah. Thank you, guys. Yeah. Yeah. Again, thank, thank you for your time. Very appreciative and, and, and that was great. That was awesome. So thank you. Yeah. Thank you so much. We appreciate you tuning in to this episode of the Kaiser Human Performance

Podcast. To stay up to date on all things Kaiser, follow us @kaiserfitness on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. For more content, you can visit our Kaiser Fitness YouTube page and at our website, www.kaiser.com.

Thank you, and have a great day.